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1994-08-02
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I N D E X
VOLUME 1 PAGES 1 - 147, INCL.
FRIDAY, JUNE 17, 1994 P.M. 1
MONDAY, JUNE 20, 1994 A.M. 36
P.M. 107
E X A M I N A T I O N
______________________________________________________________
WITNESS(ES): EXAMINATION
______________________________________________________________
KAELIN, BRIAN GERARD 5
(RECALLED) 50
GOLDEN, IRWIN L. 108
(RESUMED) 125
E X H I B I T S
______________________________________________________________
EXHIBITS: FOR I.D. IN EVID.
______________________________________________________________
1 - PHOTOGRAPH (PREMARKED)
2 - PHOTOGRAPH (PREMARKED)
3 - DIAGRAM 56
4 - PHOTOGRAPH 89
5 - PHOTOGRAPH 96
6 - PHOTOGRAPH 113
7 - PHOTOGRAPH 116
E X H I B I T S
______________________________________________________________
EXHIBITS: FOR I.D. IN EVID.
______________________________________________________________
8 - PHOTOGRAPH 118
9 - PHOTOGRAPH 120
10 - PHOTOGRAPH 122
11 - PHOTOGRAPH 126
12 - PHOTOGRAPH 127
13 - PHOTOGRAPH 128
14 - PHOTOGRAPH 129
15 - PHOTOGRAPH 130
16 - PHOTOGRAPH 131
17 - PHOTOGRAPH 133
18 - PHOTOGRAPH 134
19 - PHOTOGRAPH 136
20 - PHOTOGRAPH 136
21 - PHOTO DISPLAY 138
VOLUME 2 PAGES 148 - 310, INCL.
TUESDAY, JUNE 21, 1994 A.M. 148
P.M. 244
E X A M I N A T I O N
______________________________________________________________
WITNESS(ES): EXAMINATION
______________________________________________________________
SHIVELY, JILL 150
BOZTEPE, SUKRU 170
RASMUSSEN, BETTINA 180
DE BELLO, JOHN ANTHONY 184
CAMACHO, JOSE 193
CRAWFORD, KAREN LEE 209
ZLOMSOWITCH, KEITH DOUGLAS 219
(RESUMED) 245
PARK, ALLAN WILLIAM 249
LANGE, TOM 283
E X H I B I T S
______________________________________________________________
EXHIBITS: FOR I.D.
______________________________________________________________
22 - DIAGRAM 152
23 - PHOTOGRAPH 162
24 - PHOTOGRAPH 185
25 - PHOTOGRAPH 185
26 - PHOTOGRAPHS 216
27 - PHOTOGRAPHS 294
28 - PHOTOGRAPHS 299
29 - PHOTOGRAPHS 299
VOLUME 3 PAGES 311 - 410, INCL.
WEDNESDAY, JUNE 22, 1994 A.M. 310
P.M. 368
E X A M I N A T I O N
______________________________________________________________
WITNESS(ES): EXAMINATION
______________________________________________________________
RISKE, ROBERT LANCE 312
VANNATTER, PHILLIP LEWIS 322
PERATIS, THANO M. 369
FUNG, DENNIS KIRK 373
E X H I B I T S
______________________________________________________________
EXHIBITS: FOR I.D.
______________________________________________________________
30 - PHOTOGRAPH 333
31 - PHOTOGRAPH 333
32 - PHOTOGRAPHS 347
33 - PHOTOGRAPHS 398
VOLUME 4 PAGES 411 - 460, INCL.
THURSDAY, JUNE 23, 1994 A.M. 411
E X A M I N A T I O N
______________________________________________________________
WITNESS(ES): EXAMINATION
______________________________________________________________
SHIVELY, JILL
(RECALLED) 412
YAMAUCHI, COLLIN 420
E X H I B I T S
______________________________________________________________
EXHIBITS: FOR I.D.
______________________________________________________________
34 - CHART 435
(EXHIBITS PREVIOUSLY MARKED RECEIVED
IN EVIDENCE ON PAGE 460.)
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13 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
14 AT THIS TIME, MADAME FOREMAN, I WOULD LIKE TO
15 CALL MR. BRIAN KAELIN TO THE WITNESS STAND.
16 THE FOREPERSON: BRIAN KAELIN, PLEASE RAISE YOUR
17 RIGHT HAND.
18 YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
19 TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
20 THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
21 TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
22 THE WITNESS: I DO.
23 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE BE SEATED.
24 MR. KAELIN, PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL
25 NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
26 THE WITNESS: BRIAN GERARD KAELIN.
27 B-R-I-A-N G-E-R-A-R-D K-A-E-L-I-N.
28 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
6
1 MISS CLARK, YOU MAY PROCEED.
2 MS. CLARK: THANK YOU.
3
4 BRIAN GERARD KAELIN,
5 CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
6 WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
7
8 E X A M I N A T I O N
9 BY MS. CLARK:
10 Q. MR. KAELIN, WERE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH A WOMAN BY
11 THE NAME OF NICOLE SIMPSON?
12 A. ON THE ADVICE OF MY ATTORNEY, I MUST
13 RESPECTFULLY DECLINE TO ANSWER AND ASSERT MY CONSTITUTIONAL
14 RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT.
15 Q. YOU SEEM TO BE READING FROM A PIECE OF YELLOW
16 PAPER AND THERE IS SOME WRITING ON THAT PAPER.
17 IS THAT WRITING WHAT YOU HAVE JUST READ TO US
18 NOW?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. AND DID YOUR ATTORNEY WRITE THAT OUT FOR YOU
21 THIS MORNING?
22 A. ON THE ADVICE OF MY ATTORNEY, I MUST
23 RESPECTFULLY DECLINE TO ANSWER AND ASSERT MY RIGHT TO
24 REMAIN SILENT.
25 Q. ON THE NIGHT OF JUNE 12, 1994, WERE YOU IN THE
26 COMPANY OF MR. ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON?
27 A. ON THE ADVISE OF MY ATTORNEY, I MUST
28 RESPECTFULLY DECLINE TO ANSWER AND ASSERT MY CONSTITUTIONAL
7
1 RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT.
2 Q. DID YOU GO OUT TO MC DONALD'S WITH HIM IN HIS
3 ROLLS ROYCE AT APPROXIMATELY 9 P.M. ON THE EVENING OF
4 JUNE 12, 1994 IN LOS ANGELES COUNTY?
5 A. ON THE ADVICE OF MY ATTORNEY, I MUST
6 RESPECTFULLY DECLINE TO ANSWER AND ASSERT MY CONSTITUTIONAL
7 RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT.
8 Q. IS IT YOUR STATEMENT TO US TODAY THAT YOU WILL
9 REFUSE TO DISCUSS OR TESTIFY TO ANY MATTER CONCERNING THE
10 EVENTS OF THE NIGHT OF JUNE 12, 1994?
11 A. ON THE ADVICE OF MY ATTORNEY, I MUST
12 RESPECTFULLY DECLINE TO ANSWER AND ASSERT MY CONSTITUTIONAL
13 RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT.
14 Q. AND DO YOU ALSO, THEN, REFUSE TO DISCUSS WITH
15 US THE RELATIONSHIP YOU HAD WITH MR. ORENTHAL JAMES SIMPSON
16 AND HIS WIFE NICOLE SIMPSON?
17 A. ON THE ADVICE OF MY ATTORNEY, I MUST
18 RESPECTFULLY DECLINE TO ANSWER AND ASSERT MY CONSTITUTIONAL
19 RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT.
20 MR. WHITE: MADAME FOREMAN, BASED ON THE WITNESS'
21 ANSWERS HERE THUS FAR, I WOULD ASK THAT YOU ORDER THE
22 WITNESS TO GO TO DEPARTMENT 122 FOR A LITIGATION OF THIS
23 ISSUE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT HE CAN PROPERLY INVOKE THE RIGHT
24 OF SELF-INCRIMINATION IN THIS CIRCUMSTANCE.
25 THE FOREPERSON: MR. KAELIN, I ADVISE YOU THAT YOUR
26 REFUSAL TO ANSWER THE QUESTIONS PUT BEFORE YOU IS WITHOUT
27 LEGAL CAUSE AND THAT IF YOU PERSIST IN YOUR REFUSAL, YOU
28 WILL BE IN CONTEMPT OF THIS GRAND JURY AND I WILL ORDER YOU
8
1 REMANDED FORTHWITH TO DEPARTMENT 122 OF THE SUPERIOR COURT
2 FOR THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES FOR FURTHER PROCEEDINGS
3 REGARDING THIS CONTEMPT.
4 I FURTHER ADVISE YOU THAT THIS GRAND JURY IS A
5 LAWFULLY CONSTITUTED LEGAL BODY AND THAT YOUR REFUSAL,
6 WITHOUT LEGAL CAUSE, TO ANSWER QUESTIONS BEFORE THIS GRAND
7 JURY DOES CONSTITUTE CONTEMPT AND WILL SUBJECT YOU TO
8 IMPRISONMENT PURSUANT TO THE LAWS OF THIS STATE.
9 WILL YOU NOW TESTIFY OR WILL YOU ANSWER THE
10 QUESTIONS, ANY AND ALL OF THEM, WHICH YOU HAVE PREVIOUSLY
11 REFUSED TO ANSWER?
12 THE WITNESS: I WOULD LIKE TO STEP OUT AND SPEAK TO
13 MY ATTORNEY.
14 THE FOREPERSON: YOU MAY DO SO.
15 EXCUSE ME.
16 WILL THE SERGEANT-AT-ARMS PLEASE ESCORT
17 MR. KAELIN TO THE DOOR.
18
19 (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
20 JURY HEARING ROOM.)
21
22 (SHORT PAUSE.)
23
24 THE FOREPERSON: MR. KAELIN, WILL YOU NOW TESTIFY OR
25 WILL YOU NOW ANSWER THE QUESTIONS, ANY OR ALL OF THEM,
26 WHICH YOU PREVIOUSLY REFUSED TO ANSWER?
27 THE WITNESS: ON THE ADVICE OF MY ATTORNEY, I MUST
28 RESPECTFULLY DECLINE TO ANSWER AND ASSERT MY CONSTITUTIONAL
9
1 RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT.
2 THE FOREPERSON: MR. KAELIN, I DECLARE YOU TO BE IN
3 CONTEMPT OF THIS GRAND JURY.
4 THE SHERIFF IS ORDERED TO TRANSPORT YOU
5 FORTHWITH TO DEPARTMENT 122 OF THE SUPERIOR COURT FOR
6 FURTHER PROCEEDINGS REGARDING THIS CONTEMPT.
7 I FURTHER DIRECT THE GRAND JURY LEGAL ADVISOR,
8 DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY AND THE COURT REPORTER TO
9 PROCEED IMMEDIATELY TO DEPARTMENT 122 FOR FURTHER
10 PROCEEDINGS IN THIS MATTER.
11 THE GRAND JURY IS NOW IN RECESS IN THIS
12 MATTER.
13
14 (THE DEPUTIES DISTRICT ATTORNEY, THE LEGAL
15 ADVISOR, THE COURT REPORTER AND THE
16 WITNESS EXIT THE GRAND JURY HEARING ROOM.)
17
18 (RECESS TAKEN.)
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1 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; MONDAY, JUNE 20, 1994
2 10:10 A.M.
3 -O0O-
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1 BRIAN GERARD KAELIN,
2 RECALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND
3 JURY, HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY DULY SWORN, RESUMED THE STAND
4 AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:
5
6 E X A M I N A T I O N (RESUMED)
7 BY MS. CLARK:
8 Q. MR. KAELIN, WERE YOU ACQUAINTED WITH THE
9 VICTIM, NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. AND HOW DID YOU BECOME ACQUAINTED WITH HER?
12 A. I MET NICOLE IN DECEMBER OF '92.
13 Q. HOW DID YOU MEET HER?
14 A. IT WAS IN ASPEN, AND WE WERE INTRODUCED THROUGH
15 FRIENDS.
16 Q. DID YOU MAINTAIN CONTACT WITH HER AFTER YOU MET
17 HER THAT FIRST TIME?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. AT THAT TIME, WHERE WERE YOU LIVING?
20 A. HERMOSA BEACH.
21 Q. WHILE YOU LIVED IN HERMOSA BEACH, DID YOU
22 MAINTAIN CONTACT WITH HER?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. HOW DID YOU MAINTAIN THAT CONTACT?
25 A. THROUGH FRIENDS.
26 Q. WERE YOU ROMANTICALLY INVOLVED WITH HER?
27 A. NO.
28 Q. DID YOU ULTIMATELY ATTEND A PARTY WITH HER?
50
1 A. YES.
2 Q. AND WHEN WAS THAT?
3 A. THE PARTY WAS AFTER ASPEN, SO JANUARY, I
4 THINK, '93.
5 Q. WHERE WAS THAT PARTY GIVEN?
6 A. AT HER HOUSE.
7 Q. WHICH WAS WHERE?
8 A. BRENTWOOD.
9 Q. ON WHAT STREET?
10 A. GRETNA GREEN.
11 Q. DID YOU SPEAK TO HER AT THAT PARTY?
12 A. YES, I DID.
13 Q. DID THAT PARTICULAR PROPERTY HAVE A SPARE ROOM
14 THERE?
15 A. YES, IT DID.
16 Q. CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHAT KIND OF SPARE ROOM THAT
17 WAS.
18 A. ON GRETNA GREEN, THERE WAS A GUEST HOUSE BEHIND
19 HER HOUSE.
20 Q. DID YOU -- WERE YOU INTERESTED FOR SOME REASON
21 IN THAT GUEST HOUSE?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. WHY WAS THAT?
24 A. BECAUSE I LIVED IN HERMOSA BEACH AND IT WAS A
25 LONG DRIVE AND I ASKED IF THAT ROOM WAS AVAILABLE TO LIVE
26 IN.
27 Q. DID SHE SAY OR -- DID SHE RESPOND?
28 A. YES.
51
1 Q. WHAT DID SHE TELL YOU?
2 A. SHE SAID, "SURE, YOU CAN LIVE THERE."
3 Q. DID YOU MOVE IN?
4 A. YES, I DID.
5 Q. WERE YOU PAYING RENT?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. DURING THAT PERIOD OF TIME, DID YOU BECOME
8 ACQUAINTED WITH THE SUSPECT, ORENTHAL SIMPSON?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. DID YOU EVER SEE HIM WITH MISS SIMPSON,
11 NICOLE?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. DID YOU EVER OBSERVE THEM TO ARGUE OR FIGHT?
14 A. I SAW THEM CLOSE AND I SAW MAYBE AN ARGUMENT.
15 Q. AND WHERE WAS THAT?
16 A. GRETNA GREEN.
17 Q. DO YOU RECALL THE NATURE OF THE ARGUMENT OR
18 JUST THAT IT WAS ONE?
19 A. THAT IT WAS ONE.
20 Q. WAS THAT THE ONLY TIME YOU EVER SAW AN ARGUMENT
21 BETWEEN THEM?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. HOW LONG DID YOU LIVE ON GRETNA GREEN?
24 A. I LIVED THERE FROM '93 UNTIL JANUARY OF '94.
25 Q. WERE YOU PRESENT WHEN THEY WERE TOGETHER VERY
26 OFTEN?
27 A. CAN YOU SAY THAT AGAIN?
28 Q. YES.
52
1 WHEN MR. SIMPSON WAS WITH NICOLE SIMPSON, WERE
2 YOU PRESENT VERY OFTEN, OR WAS THAT SOMETHING -- OR WERE
3 YOU USUALLY NOT AROUND WHEN THEY WERE TOGETHER?
4 A. NOT ON DATES OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT, NO, I WAS
5 NEVER WITH THEM.
6 Q. SO WOULD YOU SAY THAT YOU HAD FAIRLY LITTLE
7 CONTACT WITH THEM AS THEY INTERACTED AS A COUPLE WHEN THEY
8 WERE TOGETHER?
9 A. YES.
10 IF HE WAS AT GRETNA GREEN AND THE KIDS WERE
11 THERE AND IF I WAS THERE, I WOULD PLAY WITH THE KIDS. AND
12 THAT'S IT.
13 AND IT WOULD BE -- YOU KNOW, I WOULD BE THERE,
14 ALSO, BUT I DIDN'T GO ON THE DATES OR ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
15 Q. SO YOUR CONTACT WITH THEM AS A COUPLE WAS VERY
16 LIMITED.
17 A. YES.
18 Q. AT SOME POINT, DID YOU MOVE AWAY FROM THE
19 GRETNA GREEN RESIDENCE?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. TELL ME HOW THAT HAPPENED.
22 A. NICOLE WAS MOVING TO A NEW PART OF BRENTWOOD,
23 AND SHE HAD ASKED ME ONE TIME TO LOOK FOR A PLACE AND THEN
24 CHANGED HER MIND TO LIVE THERE. AND I WAS GOING TO MOVE
25 THERE.
26 AND O.J. SIMPSON ASKED ME IF I WANTED TO MOVE
27 INTO HIS PLACE.
28 Q. NOW, AT THE TIME YOU WERE LIVING AT GRETNA
53
1 GREEN, NICOLE SIMPSON WAS LIVING IN THE MAIN HOUSE.
2 IS THAT CORRECT?
3 A. NICOLE SIMPSON IN THE MAIN HOUSE ON GRETNA
4 GREEN, YES.
5 Q. WHO WAS LIVING WITH HER THERE?
6 A. HER CHILDREN, SIDNEY AND JUSTIN.
7 Q. AND WAS ANY MAN LIVING THERE WITH HER?
8 A. NO.
9 Q. MR. SIMPSON WAS NOT LIVING THERE?
10 A. NO.
11 Q. DO YOU KNOW WHERE HE LIVED AT THAT TIME?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. WHERE?
14 A. IN BRENTWOOD.
15 Q. SAME PLACE AS NOW?
16 A. ROCKINGHAM, YES.
17 Q. SO WHAT YEAR WAS IT THAT YOU MOVED OUT OF
18 GRETNA GREEN?
19 A. I MOVED OUT OF GRETNA GREEN IN '94, JANUARY.
20 Q. AND THAT WAS AT THE SAME TIME THAT NICOLE
21 SIMPSON MOVED OUT?
22 A. UH-HUH.
23 Q. IS THAT "YES"?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. NOW, WHAT WAS YOUR PLAN?
26 WERE YOU PLANNING TO MOVE WITH HER TO THE NEW
27 PLACE?
28 A. YEAH.
54
1 Q. BUT MR. SIMPSON ASKED YOU NOT TO?
2 A. HE ASKED ME IF I WANTED TO MOVED INTO HIS
3 PLACE.
4 AND IT WAS INSIDE THE HOUSE THIS TIME ON BUNDY
5 AND I WOULD BE LIVING IN THE HOUSE AND HE SAID IT WOULD
6 PROBABLY NOT BE RIGHT TO BE IN THE SAME HOUSE.
7 Q. WITH NICOLE SIMPSON?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. THE BUNDY RESIDENCE THEN THAT SHE WAS MOVING TO
10 IN JANUARY OF '94 DID NOT HAVE A SEPARATE GUEST HOUSE?
11 A. NOT A SEPARATE GUEST HOUSE, BUT A ROOM THAT --
12 IT WAS IN THE HOUSE, BUT IT WOULD BE KIND OF BY ITSELF, BUT
13 STILL IN THE HOUSE.
14 Q. IT WAS IN THE HOUSE?
15 A. YES, IT WAS.
16 Q. IT WAS NOT A SEPARATE GUEST HOUSE LIKE IT WAS
17 ON GRETNA GREEN?
18 A. EXACTLY.
19 Q. AND MR. SIMPSON INDICATED TO YOU THAT HE
20 PREFERRED YOU NOT LIVE THERE SINCE IT WAS INSIDE THE HOUSE?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. SO HE ASKED YOU TO --
23 A. IF I DIDN'T MIND, HE SAID HE HAS A ROOM THERE.
24 HE GOES, "YOU CAN MOVE IN THERE."
25 Q. SO HE OFFERED TO RENT A PLACE TO YOU AT THE
26 ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS?
27 A. HE JUST GAVE IT TO ME.
28 Q. FOR FREE?
55
1 A. YEAH.
2 I ASKED IF I COULD -- YOU KNOW, IF HE WANTED
3 ANYTHING LIKE THAT.
4 HE SAID, "NO."
5 Q. SO DID YOU MOVE IN?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. AND --
8 A. TO ROCKINGHAM?
9 Q. YES.
10 A. YES.
11 Q. AND THE PLACE YOU MOVED INTO, CAN YOU DESCRIBE
12 IT TO US.
13 A. IT'S A LOT LIKE A HOTEL ROOM.
14 IT HAS -- IT'S OFF TO THE SIDE. IT HAS A
15 DOORWAY, IT HAS THE BED AND THE BATHROOM AND IT'S LIKE AN
16 OFFICE SPACE.
17 Q. IS IT IN THE MIDDLE? THE SIDE?
18 WHERE IS IT IN RELATION TO THE MAIN HOUSE?
19 A. THE SIDE.
20 Q. I'M GOING TO SHOW YOU A DIAGRAM.
21 MS. CLARK: I WOULD ASK THIS DIAGRAM BE MARKED
22 PEOPLE'S 3.
23 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
24 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 3.)
25 Q. BY MS. CLARK: NOW, SHOWING YOU THE DIAGRAM.
26 IF YOU COULD TRY TO INDICATE -- IT'S GOING TO
27 BE OFF THIS DIAGRAM, YOUR GUEST HOUSE, BUT INDICATE TO THE
28 JURY WHERE YOUR PLACE WOULD BE.
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1 A. IF THIS IS THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE HERE, BACK
2 HERE IS A POOL, THE POOL, IT WOULD BE HERE.
3 MY PLACE WOULD BE RIGHT HERE.
4 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS
5 INDICATED --
6 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "THE FRONT HOUSE," YOU ARE
7 INDICATING THE AREA THAT SAYS, "FRONT DOOR" HERE ON THE
8 DIAGRAM?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. THEN WHEN YOU SAY, "THE POOL," YOU ARE POINTING
11 DIRECTLY BEHIND THAT OFF THE DIAGRAM; RIGHT?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. AND THE GUEST HOUSE, THEN, WOULD BE WHERE IN
14 RELATION TO THE POOL?
15 A. RIGHT ACROSS FROM THE POOL ON -- IF THE GARAGE
16 IS HERE, IT WOULD BE STRAIGHT BACK HERE IN THAT AREA.
17 MS. CLARK: THE WITNESS IS INDICATING THE AREA MARKED
18 AS GARAGE.
19 Q. IS THAT CORRECT, SIR?
20 A. GARAGE; RIGHT.
21 Q. AND SO THEN THE AREA THAT WOULD BE YOUR GUEST
22 HOUSE WOULD BE OFF THE DIAGRAM BUT DIRECTLY BEHIND THE
23 GARAGE?
24 A. YEAH. IT'S STRAIGHT DOWN HERE; CORRECT.
25 Q. SO YOU STAYED THERE FOR FREE?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. DID YOU CONTINUE TO LIVE THERE UP THROUGH JUNE
28 OF 1994?
57
1 A. YES.
2 Q. ARE YOU STILL LIVING THERE NOW?
3 A. MY STUFF IS THERE, BUT I'M NOT LIVING THERE.
4 Q. DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO JUNE 12, 1994, ON
5 THAT DATE, WERE YOU STILL LIVING IN THE RESIDENCE THAT WAS
6 THE GUEST HOUSE BEHIND THE MAIN HOUSE AT 360 ROCKINGHAM
7 AVENUE?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. DO YOU RECALL HAVING ANY CONTACT WITH
10 MR. SIMPSON DURING THE DAY?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. CAN YOU TELL US WHETHER YOU HAD CONTACT WITH
13 HIM AT APPROXIMATELY 7 P.M. THAT DAY.
14 A. YEAH -- YES.
15 Q. YOU DID?
16 A. YEAH, I THINK IT WAS ABOUT SEVEN.
17 YES.
18 Q. WHAT WAS THE NATURE OF THAT CONTACT?
19 A. TALKING TO HIM IN THE KITCHEN AREA, WHICH IS ON
20 THE DIAGRAM, AND WE WERE BY THE KITCHENETTE AREA AND ASKING
21 HIM ABOUT THE RECITAL OF HIS DAUGHTER SYDNEY.
22 Q. IT WAS A RECITAL OF HIS DAUGHTER THAT NIGHT?
23 A. YES.
24 IT WAS AT 5:00 O'CLOCK.
25 Q. IT WAS AT 5:00 O'CLOCK?
26 A. THAT'S WHAT WAS MENTIONED, THE 5:00 O'CLOCK
27 RECITAL.
28 Q. WHO TOLD YOU THAT?
58
1 A. O.J.
2 Q. HE TOLD YOU HE WAS GOING TO SEE HIS DAUGHTER'S
3 RECITAL AT 5:00 O'CLOCK?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. SO AT 7:00 O'CLOCK YOU ASKED HIM HOW IT WENT?
6 A. YES, I DID.
7 Q. AND DID HE RESPOND TO YOU?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. WHAT DID HE TELL YOU?
10 A. HE SAID, "SHE WAS WONDERFUL, BEAUTIFUL," AND HE
11 WAS PROUD OF HER.
12 Q. TELL ME HOW HE WAS BEHAVING.
13 DID HE SEEM AGITATED? UPSET? NERVOUS?
14 A. NO; NONCHALANT.
15 Q. RELAXED?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. DID HE MAKE ANY MENTION TO YOU OF NICOLE AT
18 THAT TIME?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WHAT WAS THAT?
21 A. IN A GOOD-NATURED SORT OF WAY, HE HAD MENTIONED
22 WHO -- SHE WAS WITH GIRLFRIENDS, I BELIEVE, NO NAMES, I
23 DON'T KNOW WHO; THAT HE WAS WONDERING IF THEY WERE GOING TO
24 AGE GRACEFULLY AND WHAT KIND OF OUTFITS THEY WERE GOING TO
25 BE WEARING.
26 Q. CAN YOU RECALL WHAT HIS WORDS WERE?
27 A. IT WAS ABOUT WEARING TIGHT-FITTING CLOTHES, IN
28 REFERENCE -- GOOD NATURED, CAN'T YOU WEAR THAT IF THE --
59
1 WHEN SHE'S GOING TO BE OLDER, JOKING, LIKE WEARING
2 TIGHT-FITTING CLOTHES, GOOD NATUREDLY, LIKE A GRANDMA.
3 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "GOOD NATUREDLY," THAT'S WHAT HE
4 WAS ACTING LIKE?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. WAS HE LAUGHING?
7 A. YEAH; JOKING, LAUGHING.
8 Q. KIND OF WONDERING WERE YOU GOING TO WEAR THESE
9 WHEN YOU GOT OLDER?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. AND HE WAS MAKING REFERENCE TO TIGHT DRESSES OR
12 OUTFITS?
13 A. DRESSES, YEAH.
14 Q. DID HE SEEM ANGRY WHEN HE SAID THAT?
15 A. NO.
16 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
17 A. I THINK THAT'S THE CONVERSATION WE HAD.
18 AND I TOOK A JACUZZI, AND I WAS ASKING HIM
19 PERMISSION IF I COULD TAKE A JACUZZI.
20 Q. DID YOU?
21 A. YES. I TOOK A JACUZZI.
22 Q. WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU TOOK A JACUZZI?
23 A. IT WAS BEGINNING TO GET DARK, SO I BELIEVE IT
24 WAS ABOUT 7:30, 8:00 O'CLOCK.
25 Q. WHEN DID YOU FINISH THE JACUZZI?
26 A. PROBABLY 8:30, ABOUT THAT TIME.
27 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO AT 8:30?
28 A. GOT OUT OF THE JACUZZI AND WENT TO MY ROOM.
60
1 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO IN YOUR ROOM?
2 A. I THINK I CALLED MY FRIEND SUSAN AFTER -- I WAS
3 GOING TO TELL HER -- I TOLD HER BEFORE I WAS GOING TO TAKE
4 A JACUZZI AND SHOWER, AND I CALLED HER AFTER I WAS DONE
5 WITH MY JACUZZI AND SHOWER.
6 Q. DID YOU HAVE CONTACT WITH MR. SIMPSON AT THAT
7 POINT?
8 A. HE HAD COME TO MY ROOM WHEN I WAS ON THE PHONE
9 WITH SOMEONE.
10 Q. AND?
11 A. AND IT WAS MY FRIEND TOM AT THAT TIME, TOM
12 O'BRIEN.
13 Q. WHEN YOU WERE TALKING TO YOUR FRIEND SUSAN,
14 WERE THE JACUZZI JETS STILL ON?
15 A. OH, YES.
16 HE CAME TO THE ROOM AND HE ASKED ME IF I WAS
17 DONE WITH THE JACUZZI BECAUSE I LEFT THE JETS ON.
18 AND I WAS -- AND I FELT BAD BECAUSE I FELT LIKE
19 I HAD SCREWED UP.
20 Q. DID YOU TURN THEM OFF?
21 A. NO.
22 HE SAID HE WOULD TURN THEM OFF, BECAUSE HE WAS
23 ASKING ME IF I WAS DONE WITH THE JACUZZI.
24 AND I SAID, "YEAH, I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE
25 ANYMORE."
26 Q. THAT WAS ABOUT 8:30?
27 A. YEAH, ABOUT 8:30.
28 Q. AND WHAT HAPPENED NEXT AFTER YOU HAD THAT
61
1 CONTACT WITH HIM?
2 A. WHEN I WENT BACK TO MY ROOM -- I WAS AT MY
3 DOOR, AND THEN I WENT BACK INTO MY ROOM AND MADE A CALL.
4 Q. AT THE TIME HE SAID, "ARE YOU STILL USING THE
5 JACUZZI," DID YOU COME OUT AND TALK TO HIM?
6 A. YES.
7 IT WAS OUTSIDE OF MY ROOM. I WAS AT MY DOORWAY
8 AND HE WAS ABOVE THE PERCH.
9 Q. SO YOU SPOKE WITH HIM FACE TO FACE?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. THEN WHAT?
12 A. THEN I WENT BACK IN MY ROOM.
13 Q. DID YOU SEE WHERE HE WENT?
14 A. NO.
15 I WENT BACK TO MY ROOM AND I JUST SAW HIM WALK
16 AWAY. BUT I DIDN'T SEE WHERE HE WENT TO.
17 Q. WAS THERE ANYTHING UNUSUAL IN THE WAY HE
18 BEHAVED AT THAT TIME?
19 A. NO.
20 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO THEN?
21 A. I MADE A PHONE CALL.
22 Q. TO?
23 A. MY FRIEND TOM O'BRIEN.
24 Q. AND DID YOU HAVE -- DURING THAT PHONE
25 CONVERSATION, DID YOU HAVE ANY CONTACT WITH MR. SIMPSON?
26 A. YEAH.
27 WHEN I WAS ON THE PHONE, HE CAME TO MY ROOM
28 AGAIN.
62
1 Q. AND WHAT, IF ANYTHING, DID HE SAY TO YOU?
2 A. HE WENT, "'KATO,' 'KATO'" -- BECAUSE THAT'S A
3 NICKNAME OF MINE.
4 AND I TOLD MY FRIEND, "HOLD ON. O.J. IS
5 CALLING."
6 AND HE HAD SAID THAT HE WAS EMBARRASSED, BUT HE
7 NEEDED TO BORROW SOME MONEY.
8 I SAID, "SURE."
9 HE TOLD ME HE NEEDED $5 FOR A SKY CAP AND HE
10 WAS GOING TO GO GET A BURGER.
11 Q. AND WHAT WAS YOUR RESPONSE?
12 A. I WENT IN MY DRAWER AND I HAD $45, AND I
13 INVITED MYSELF TO GO ALONG BECAUSE I WAS HUNGRY.
14 SO WE WENT TOGETHER TO MC DONALD'S.
15 Q. WHAT CAR WERE YOU DRIVING IN?
16 A. HIS ROLLS ROYCE.
17 Q. CAN YOU TELL ME WHAT HE WAS WEARING.
18 A. TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION, I BELIEVE IT
19 WAS A DARK OUTFIT, LIKE A SWEAT OUTFIT, A SWEAT SUIT TYPE
20 OUTFIT.
21 Q. DO YOU RECALL IF IT HAD LONG SLEEVES?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. LONG PANTS?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER HOW THE MATERIAL LOOKED?
26 A. MY BEST RECOLLECTION IS LIKE COTTON.
27 Q. LIKE A SWEAT SHIRT?
28 A. YEAH.
63
1 Q. AND IT WAS BLACK?
2 A. TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION, YEAH, IT WAS
3 BLACK.
4 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT KIND OF SHOES HE WAS
5 WEARING?
6 A. NO, I DON'T.
7 Q. DURING YOUR DRIVE TO GET FOOD, CAN YOU DESCRIBE
8 HOW MR. SIMPSON WAS BEHAVING.
9 A. QUIET AND -- I ASKED HIM A QUESTION ABOUT WHAT
10 AIRLINE HE WAS GOING TO FLY OUT AND WHAT TIME THE FLIGHT
11 WAS, BUT HE WAS -- YOU KNOW, HE SEEMED VERY TIRED.
12 Q. DID HE SEEM UPSET?
13 A. NO.
14 Q. OR DEPRESSED?
15 A. NO, TIRED.
16 Q. TIRED?
17 A. TIRED.
18 I SAID TO HIM ABOUT POSSIBLY GETTING A NAP IN
19 OR ANYTHING, IF THERE WAS TIME BEFORE THE FLIGHT, BECAUSE
20 HE WAS VERY TIRED.
21 Q. WAS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT HIS BEHAVIOR OR
22 ANYTHING THAT APPEARED TO YOU THAT APPEARED THAT HE WAS,
23 YOU KNOW, ON DRUGS OR ANYTHING?
24 A. NO.
25 Q. NOTHING UNUSUAL IN THE WAY HE WAS BEHAVING;
26 JUST KIND OF TIRED?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. HAD HE PLAYED GOLF THAT MORNING?
64
1 A. YES, HE DID.
2 Q. WAS THAT EARLY IN THE MORNING, TO THE BEST OF
3 YOUR KNOWLEDGE?
4 A. TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, YES.
5 Q. DURING THE RIDE TO GET FOOD, WAS THERE ANY
6 MENTION OF HIM ABOUT NICOLE?
7 A. NO.
8 I HAD MENTIONED THAT I WANTED TO TYPE SOMETHING
9 AND BY MY ROOM I HAVE A TYPEWRITER. AND I ASKED O.J. IF IT
10 WAS OKAY IF I USE THE TYPEWRITER IN MY OFFICE AREA BECAUSE
11 IT WASN'T MY TYPEWRITER.
12 AND IT WAS JUST THE MENTION, "OH, IT'S NICOLE'S
13 TYPEWRITER, BUT YOU CAN USE IT." JUST LIKE THAT.
14 Q. AND THAT WAS A TYPEWRITER THAT WAS IN YOUR
15 GUEST HOUSE; RIGHT?
16 A. YEAH; UH-HUH.
17 IT WAS AN I.B.M.
18 Q. ON THE WAY, DID YOU EAT IN THE CAR?
19 A. WE WENT TO MC DONALD'S, AND WE WERE AT
20 MC DONALD'S AT SANTA MONICA, BUT THERE IS A CARL'S, JR.
21 ACROSS THE STREET. I REMEMBER THAT.
22 WE WENT THROUGH THE DRIVE-THRU AND ORDERED.
23 Q. WHAT DID YOU GET?
24 A. MYSELF?
25 Q. YES.
26 A. IT WAS A MC GRILLED CHICKEN SANDWICH DEAL.
27 Q. DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT MR. SIMPSON GOT?
28 A. HE GOT -- I DON'T KNOW THE NAME, BUT IT WAS
65
1 LIKE ONE OF THOSE DOUBLE OR TRIPLE BURGERS.
2 IT WAS A LARGE -- SOME KIND OF HAMBURGER, AND I
3 THINK HE HAD FRENCH FRIES, TOO.
4 AND THAT'S IT.
5 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
6 A. WE GOT THE FOOD, I PAID FOR IT, AND -- BECAUSE
7 I HAD GIVEN HIM A $20 BILL FOR THE AIRPORT.
8 SO WHEN WE GOT THE FOOD, HE HAD SAID, "SORRY TO
9 DO THIS TO YOU," AND KIND OF JOKINGLY I TOOK MY SANDWICH
10 AND FRIES AND DRINK AND THEN HE BEGAN EATING HIS SANDWICH
11 IN THE CAR.
12 Q. HE ATE WHILE HE WAS DRIVING?
13 A. YES.
14 Q. YOU DIDN'T?
15 A. I NIBBLED SOME FRIES, BUT NOT THE SANDWICH.
16 AND I ASKED FOR MY STRAW BECAUSE IT WAS IN THE
17 BAG.
18 Q. THEN WHAT HAPPENED?
19 A. THEN WE DROVE BACK TO THE HOUSE.
20 Q. HE WAS DRIVING?
21 A. HE WAS DRIVING.
22 Q. ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT THE WAY HE WAS DRIVING?
23 A. NO, BECAUSE HE WAS EATING HIS BURGER.
24 HE JUST DROVE HOME, NOTHING UNUSUAL.
25 Q. AND WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU GOT HOME?
26 A. I GOT OUT OF THE CAR, HAD MY FOOD AND STARTED
27 WALKING TOWARDS HIS DOOR AND SAID, "I'M GOING TO EAT IN MY
28 ROOM," AND HE WAS OUT OF THE CAR.
66
1 AND THAT'S THE LAST I SAW HIM.
2 Q. WHAT TIME WAS IT WHEN YOU PARTED COMPANY WITH
3 MR. SIMPSON AT THAT POINT?
4 A. I THINK IT WAS ABOUT 9:45 -- 9:40, 9:45.
5 I DID MAKE A CALL IN MY ROOM AT THAT TIME,
6 APPROXIMATELY.
7 Q. DID YOU MAKE THE CALL AS SOON AS YOU GOT BACK
8 TO YOUR ROOM?
9 A. IT WAS PRETTY SOON AFTER I GOT BACK FROM
10 MC DONALD'S, AND I THINK I WAS EATING MY SANDWICH WHILE I
11 WAS WITH MY BUDDY ON THE PHONE.
12 BUT IT WAS TOM O'BRIEN.
13 Q. SO YOU THINK IT WAS IMMEDIATELY WHEN YOU GOT
14 BACK TO YOUR ROOM OR WITHIN A MINUTE OR TWO?
15 A. I'M PRETTY SURE.
16 TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION, I THINK I
17 CALLED PRETTY FAST.
18 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
19 A. AFTER I TALKED TO TOM, I HAD WANTED TO TYPE UP
20 A LETTER. SO IN BETWEEN THAT TIME OF TALKING TO TOM, I
21 WENT TO TYPE THE LETTER IN THAT OFFICE ROOM AND HAD NOTICED
22 THAT IT WASN'T WORKING, THE TYPEWRITER.
23 Q. THE TYPEWRITER DIDN'T WORK?
24 A. I TRIED ALL THE OUTLETS AND IT WASN'T WORKING.
25 I DIDN'T KNOW WHY.
26 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
27 A. I MADE ANOTHER PHONE CALL.
28 Q. TO?
67
1 A. TO RACHEL. RACHEL -- DO YOU WANT HER LAST
2 NAME?
3 Q. SURE.
4 A. RACHEL FERRARA.
5 Q. WHAT HAPPENED -- DID ANYTHING UNUSUAL OCCUR
6 DURING THE PHONE CALL TO RACHEL?
7 A. YES.
8 I WAS ON THE PHONE WITH RACHEL AND TALKING.
9 I HEARD A NOISE ON THE BACK OF MY WALL. AND IT
10 WAS -- IT WAS LIKE A THREE-THUMP NOISE.
11 Q. GO AHEAD AND JUST DEMONSTRATE FOR THE JURY.
12 A. (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
13 LIKE THAT.
14 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS TAKEN HIS
15 FIST AND POUNDED THREE TIMES ON THE TABLE IN FRONT OF HIM.
16 Q. AND WHERE ON THE -- STRIKE THAT.
17 DO YOU HAVE AN AIR CONDITIONING UNIT THAT GOES
18 INTO THE WALL?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. IS IT IN LIKE A WINDOW OR AN OPENING OF THE
21 WALL?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. THAT WALL THAT THE AIR CONDITIONING UNIT IS IN,
24 IS THERE A SMALL LITTLE PATH ALONGSIDE THE OUTSIDE OF THAT
25 WALL?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. NEXT TO THAT PATH, IS THERE A FENCE?
28 A. I THINK A NEIGHBOR'S FENCE.
68
1 YES, THERE IS A FENCE.
2 Q. IS THAT THE SIDE BORDER OF THE PROPERTY OF
3 ROCKINGHAM, 360 ROCKINGHAM?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. THE AREA ON THE WALL WHERE YOU HEARD THAT
6 THUMP, THOSE THUMPS, WAS THAT NEAR TO THE AIR CONDITIONING
7 UNIT?
8 A. YES.
9 ALSO, THE PICTURE MOVED.
10 Q. AND THE PICTURE ON THAT WALL MOVED?
11 A. THE PICTURE NEXT TO MY ROOM, THERE IS A PICTURE
12 OVER BY THE PHONE AND IT TILTED, AND I THOUGHT THERE WAS AN
13 EARTHQUAKE.
14 Q. IT TILTED WHEN YOU HEARD THE THUMPS?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. THAT PICTURE IS ON THE WALL WHERE THE THUMPS
17 WENT?
18 A. THE THUMPS WENT; THE PICTURE STARTED MOVING.
19 Q. SO YOU THOUGHT IT WAS AN EARTHQUAKE?
20 A. YEAH.
21 I TOLD RACHEL ON THE PHONE, "HEY, DID WE HAVE
22 AN EARTHQUAKE?"
23 SHE SAID, "NO, I DON'T THINK SO."
24 Q. DON'T TELL ME WHAT SHE SAID.
25 A. OKAY.
26 Q. YOU WERE PRETTY EXCITED?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. AND YOU WERE EXCITED BECAUSE YOU THOUGHT IT WAS
69
1 AN EARTHQUAKE AND YOU MADE THAT STATEMENT TO HER?
2 A. UH-HUH; YES.
3 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
4 A. OKAY.
5 THEN I SAID TO HER I THOUGHT WE HAD AN
6 EARTHQUAKE AND IT STARTLED ME BECAUSE I HAVE NEVER HEARD
7 THAT NOISE BEFORE, THE PICTURE MOVED AND I WAS SCARED,
8 THINKING POSSIBLY THAT MIGHT BE SOMETHING, SOMEONE.
9 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO?
10 A. I TOLD RACHEL THAT I WAS GOING TO CHECK THE
11 NOISE.
12 AND I HAVE A LITTLE FLASHLIGHT IN MY DRAWER AND
13 I TOLD HER, IN A JOKING SORT OF WAY, I SAID, "IF I'M NOT
14 BACK IN 10 MINUTES, START TO WORRY."
15 AND I HUNG UP WITH HER AND I WENT OUTSIDE.
16 Q. WHAT HAPPENED WHEN YOU WENT OUTSIDE?
17 YOU TOOK THE FLASHLIGHT, I TAKE IT?
18 A. YES, I DID.
19 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
20 A. OKAY.
21 I WENT OUTSIDE MY ROOM AND WENT -- THERE'S A
22 PATH THAT I --
23 Q. LET ME SEE IF I CAN GET YOU TO SHOW US ON THE
24 DIAGRAM THAT WE HAVE MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 3. MAYBE YOU CAN
25 POINT IT OUT TO THE JURY.
26 I WILL GIVE YOU A POINTER.
27 A. OKAY.
28 A. MY ROOM IS OVER HERE, THERE IS A POOL AND I
70
1 WOULD GO THIS WAY AND I FOLLOW A SIDEWALK PATH THAT TAKES
2 ME TO THE FRONT DRIVE WHERE THERE IS THE GATE.
3 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "THE GATE" --
4 A. OH, THIS IS ASHFORD. THE GATE ON ASHFORD.
5 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "THE GATE," THAT GATE GOES TO THE
6 STREET?
7 A. THAT GATE GOES TO ASHFORD, CORRECT.
8 Q. SO YOU WENT WHERE?
9 A. OKAY.
10 SO I'M RUNNING DOWN THIS SIDEWALK AND I SEE
11 THAT THERE IS A LIMO OUT IN FRONT. IT'S DARK; I SEE NO ONE
12 IN IT AND THE DOG, CHACHI -- THAT'S A BLACK CHOW -- IS
13 SOMEWHERE HERE IN THE DRIVEWAY.
14 AND I GO WITH THE FLASHLIGHT AND I STARTED
15 WALKING THERE, AS I SAID, AND I GET TO ABOUT HERE. AND THE
16 FLASHLIGHT WAS VERY DIM. IT WAS LIKE ONE OF THOSE SMALL
17 FLASHLIGHTS AND THE BEAM WAS KIND OF BAD ON IT. AND I WAS
18 SCARED.
19 SO AFTER I STAYED THERE, I WENT BACK OUT THIS
20 WAY, NOTICED THE GATE WAS NOT OPEN FOR THE DRIVER AND I
21 WENT TO THE GATE TO PRESS A BUTTON HERE AND IT OPENS THE
22 GATE UP.
23 Q. YOU OPENED THE GATE UP FOR WHAT PURPOSE?
24 A. TO LET THE LIMO IN.
25 Q. SO YOU DIDN'T INITIALLY LET HIM IN WHEN YOU
26 FIRST SAW HIM?
27 A. NO.
28 Q. NOW, AT THE TIME THAT YOU WALKED AROUND TO THE
71
1 ASHFORD GATE, COULD YOU TELL US WHETHER THE ROLLS ROYCE WAS
2 PARKED IN THE DRIVEWAY?
3 A. WHEN I WAS WALKING UP, THERE WAS A ROLLS ROYCE,
4 YES.
5 Q. I'M SORRY TO KEEP GOING BACK AND FORTH LIKE
6 THIS, BUT CAN YOU SHOW US WHERE THE ROLLS ROYCE WAS PARKED
7 WHEN YOU LOOKED AROUND OR CAME AROUND THE ASHFORD SIDE.
8 A. THE ROLLS ROYCE WOULD BE PARKED RIGHT HERE.
9 THERE IS A SPOT TO PARK.
10 MS. CLARK: THE WITNESS IS INDICATING THE DRIVEWAY
11 AREA THAT IS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE DIAGRAM.
12 Q. I'M GOING ASK YOU TO MARK THAT, IF YOU WILL,
13 USING MY PEN.
14 PUT AN "R" WHERE IT WAS.
15 A. (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
16 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS DONE SO.
17 Q. THAT'S WHERE THE ROLLS ROYCE WAS PARKED WHEN
18 YOU CAME OUT FROM AROUND THE ASHFORD SIDE?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. SO YOU WALKED AROUND THE ASHFORD SIDE, YOU
21 LOOKED DOWN BY THE GARAGE, CAME BACK.
22 WHEN YOU WALKED -- STRIKE THAT.
23 YOU CAME BACK, AND AT THAT POINT WHEN YOU
24 WALKED BACK TOWARDS THE ASHFORD GATE IS WHEN YOU LET THE
25 DRIVER IN?
26 A. AFTER I WENT TO THE GARAGE AREA?
27 Q. YES.
28 A. YES, I WENT TO LET THE DRIVER IN.
72
1 Q. DID YOU HAPPEN TO NOTICE WHETHER THERE WERE ANY
2 BAGS IN THE DRIVEWAY AT THAT TIME?
3 A. THERE WAS A GOLF BAG AT THE FRONT DOOR AREA.
4 THERE WAS A GOLF BAG.
5 Q. LET'S USE THIS AGAIN.
6 IF YOU WOULD, PUT A "B" FOR BAG WHERE YOU --
7 PUT A "G.B." FOR GOLF BAG WHERE YOU THINK IT WAS.
8 A. THESE ARE THE SEATS?
9 Q. THOSE ARE BENCHES.
10 A. THE BENCHES.
11 Q. GO UP RIGHT LIKE THIS, OR SHALL I LAY IT DOWN?
12 A. I CAN GET IT.
13 Q. GO UP AND PUT A "G" IN FRONT OF THAT FOR GOLF
14 BAG.
15 A. OH.
16 Q. DID YOU SEE ANY OTHER BAGS?
17 A. AT THAT TIME I DIDN'T.
18 BUT THERE WAS -- WHEN I WENT TO CHECK THE
19 SECOND TIME, I NOTICED ANOTHER BAG, YES.
20 Q. WHEN YOU -- OKAY.
21 SO WHEN YOU FIRST WALKED BACK TOWARDS THE LIMO
22 DRIVER TO LET HIM IN, YOU NOTICED THAT THERE WAS A GOLF BAG
23 IN THE FRONT AREA?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. THEN YOU LET THE DRIVER IN?
26 A. YES, I DID.
27 Q. WHERE DID HE PULL UP TO?
28 A. SHALL I MARK IT?
73
1 Q. YOU CAN JUST SHOW US.
2 A. RIGHT HERE.
3 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS INDICATED
4 THE AREA DIRECTLY IN FRONT OF THE FRONT DOOR AND THE AREA
5 DIRECTLY IN FRONT MARKED "G.B."
6 Q. DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH HIM?
7 A. YES, I DID.
8 Q. WHERE WERE YOU STANDING WHEN YOU HAD THAT
9 CONVERSATION, IF YOU RECALL?
10 A. TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION, I WAS EXCITED
11 FROM THAT AND I WAS MOVING KIND OF LIKE IN THAT KIND OF
12 MOTION.
13 IT WOULD BE MAINLY RIGHT HERE IN THE FRONT,
14 BECAUSE HE HAD PULLED UP AND THE DOG -- I SAID, "CHACHI,
15 MOVE."
16 AND THE DOG MOVED AND I KIND OF WAVED HIM ON.
17 Q. WERE YOU FACING ASHFORD OR WERE YOU FACING --
18 WHERE?
19 A. WHEN I OPENED THE GATE, I WAS FACING ASHFORD
20 AND WAVING HIM IN THIS WAY AND MAKING SURE THE DOG WAS
21 OKAY.
22 Q. WHEN YOU HAD THE CONVERSATIONS WITH HIM, WHICH
23 WAY WERE YOU FACING?
24 A. HE OPENED HIS DOOR AND I CAN'T REMEMBER EXACTLY
25 WHICH WAY I WAS FACING.
26 I WAS TALKING TO HIM, AND I THINK I WAS TALKING
27 RIGHT TO HIM LIKE THIS, BECAUSE I KNOW KIND OF WHAT HE
28 LOOKED LIKE.
74
1 Q. LIKE YOU ARE TALKING TO ME RIGHT NOW?
2 A. YEAH.
3 Q. WERE YOU THIS CLOSE TO HIM?
4 A. ABOUT THE SAME, YEAH.
5 THEN I HELPED HIM WITH THE --
6 MS. CLARK: EXCUSE ME.
7 FOR THE RECORD, THAT WOULD BE ABOUT 4 FEET, 3
8 FEET.
9 Q. GO AHEAD.
10 YOU HELPED HIM?
11 A. I PUT THE GOLF BAG IN THE TRUNK OF THE LIMO,
12 AND IT WAS --
13 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO AFTER THAT?
14 A. OH, I ASKED HIM IF WE HAD AN EARTHQUAKE. I
15 ASKED HIM IF WE HAD AN EARTHQUAKE.
16 AND HE SAID, "NO." HE WAS SITTING IN THE CAR
17 AND HE DIDN'T FEEL ONE.
18 Q. DON'T TELL US WHAT HE SAID.
19 YOU WERE VERY EXCITED ABOUT THAT EARTHQUAKE,
20 ABOUT THE NOISES YOU HEARD?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. IN THE MOMENT OF YOUR EXCITEMENT, YOU WERE
23 EXPLAINING OR TALKING TO HIM ABOUT THAT EVENT?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. AND THAT EVENT WAS THE NOISE YOU HAD HEARD ON
26 THE WALL?
27 A. YEAH.
28 I'M PRETTY SURE I TOLD HIM ABOUT THAT NOISE
75
1 THAT I HEARD.
2 SO, YES.
3 Q. AT SOME POINT, DID YOU COMPLETE YOUR
4 CONVERSATION WITH HIM?
5 A. YES, I DID. AND I WENT TO CHECK ON THAT NOISE,
6 BECAUSE I FELT MORE SECURE.
7 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO?
8 A. I WENT BACK TO THAT AREA BEHIND THE GARAGE.
9 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD --
10 Q. DO YOU WANT TO STEP -- I WILL HOLD IT.
11 SHOW US WITH THE POINTER, WHERE DID YOU GO?
12 A. CAN I SAY SOMETHING ELSE?
13 I ALSO ASKED HIM WHERE HE WAS COMING FROM AND
14 HE SAID, "REDONDO."
15 I REMEMBER HIM SAYING THAT.
16 SO THE LIMO WAS HERE AND I WENT THIS WAY.
17 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS POINTING
18 SOUTH ON THE DIAGRAM.
19 THE WITNESS: AND I STOPPED ABOUT HERE.
20 WE HAVE A DOG NAMED CHACHI.
21 I SAID, "CHACHI, COME ON," BECAUSE I WAS TRYING
22 TO GET THE DOG TO COME WITH ME.
23 AND HE CAME AND THEN HE RAN AWAY, SO I WAS ON
24 MY OWN AND I WENT DOWN THIS AREA.
25 NOW, THERE ARE GATES --
26 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS IS POINTING
27 TO THE AREA JUST SOUTH OF THE PART MARKED GARAGE.
28 THE WITNESS: THERE IS A GATE, A STEEL GATE HERE THAT
76
1 IS NOT CONNECTED -- YOU KIND OF HAVE TO PICK IT UP AND MOVE
2 IT.
3 Q. BY MS. CLARK: A STEEL GATE THAT YOU ARE TALKING
4 ABOUT HERE IS ONE THAT BLOCKS OFF THE SIDE AREA JUST SOUTH
5 OF THE GARAGE?
6 A. YEAH. IT KIND OF LIKE LEANS ON A TREE.
7 SO I START WALKING DOWN THIS WAY WITH MY
8 FLASHLIGHT, AND NOW THERE IS ANOTHER STEEL GATE THAT YOU
9 HAVE TO OPEN THAT WILL GO TO THE AREA BEHIND MY ROOM.
10 Q. I WILL TELL YOU WHAT:
11 CAN YOU DRAW A LINE FOR EACH GATE IN THE AREA
12 YOU HAVE JUST INDICATED SOUTH OF THE GARAGE.
13 A. YES.
14 I BELIEVE THE FIRST GATE IS JUST LIKE RIGHT
15 THERE.
16 Q. OKAY.
17 A. AND THEN THERE IS ANOTHER -- IF THIS IS THE
18 AREA WHERE THE ROOMS STARTED, THIS LINE WOULD BE THE GATE.
19 AND THEN --
20 Q. YOU MEAN WHERE YOUR ROOM WOULD START, THERE IS
21 A GATE JUST BEFORE IT?
22 A. PROBABLY LIKE THAT OFFICE SPACES FOR MY ROOM.
23 BECAUSE, YEAH, I HAVE TO GET BEHIND THAT GATE
24 TO GET TO MY ROOM, TO THE BACK OF MY ROOM.
25 Q. SO CAN YOU CIRCLE THAT AREA.
26 A. (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
27 Q. INDICATING, THEN, IF THE ROOM STARTED RIGHT
28 AFTER THIS LINE THAT YOU HAVE JUST CIRCLED, THEN THAT'S
77
1 WHERE THE GATE WOULD BE, BECAUSE THE GATE IS JUST BEFORE
2 THE ROOM?
3 A. YEAH.
4 THE GATE IS TO THE ROOM'S RIGHT.
5 THERE IS MORE THAN MY ROOM. THERE ARE OTHER
6 ROOMS.
7 RIGHT?
8 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS CIRCLED
9 THE REARMOST GATE AND HAS MADE A LINE TO INDICATE THE
10 FORWARDMOST GATE.
11 SO YOU WENT THROUGH THE FIRST GATE?
12 A. UH-HUH.
13 Q. IS THAT "YES"?
14 A. YES, I DID.
15 AND THEN I WENT TO THE SECOND GATE, BUT NOT
16 BEYOND IT. I DID NOT OPEN IT.
17 Q. DID YOU COME BACK OUT?
18 A. YES, I DID.
19 Q. DID YOU SEE ANYTHING UNUSUAL THAT DREW YOUR
20 ATTENTION?
21 A. WHEN I CAME BACK OUT THE SECOND TIME, THERE WAS
22 LIKE A BAG THAT I DID NOTICE.
23 Q. WHERE WAS THAT BAG?
24 A. THAT'S THE ROLLS ROYCE.
25 IF THIS AREA IS GRASS AND THE CEMENT STARTS
26 HERE, IT WAS ON THE GRASS.
27 I WILL PUT --
28 Q. GO AHEAD.
78
1 A. SHALL I PUT AN INITIAL?
2 Q. YES. PUT "B."
3 A. "B."
4 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS PLACED A
5 "B" WHERE HE INDICATES HE SAW THE BAG.
6 Q. CAN YOU DESCRIBE THAT BAG FOR US.
7 A. TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTION, IT WAS LIKE A
8 KNAPSACK TYPE BAG.
9 Q. SMALL? LARGE?
10 A. YOU KNOW THOSE COLLEGE BAGS YOU PUT BOOKS IN?
11 LIKE THAT.
12 Q. A BACKPACK?
13 A. A BACKPACK.
14 Q. WHAT COLOR WAS IT?
15 A. IT WAS DARK.
16 Q. DO YOU RECALL THE KIND OF MATERIAL?
17 A. NO.
18 Q. HAD YOU EVER SEEN IT BEFORE?
19 A. NO.
20 Q. ALL RIGHT.
21 THEN YOU WALKED BACK TO WHERE?
22 A. AT THAT TIME WHEN I WALKED BACK, O.J. WAS
23 OUTSIDE WITH THE LIMO DRIVER, AND THEN THAT'S IT.
24 I MENTIONED TO HIM ABOUT THAT NOISE.
25 Q. SO BY THE TIME YOU GOT BACK TO -- WELL, DID YOU
26 SEE MR. SIMPSON EXIT THE FRONT DOOR OF HIS RESIDENCE?
27 A. NO.
28 Q. WHEN YOU WERE WALKING BACK FROM THE GARAGE,
79
1 WERE YOU ABLE TO SEE WHERE HE WAS?
2 A. WHEN I WALKED BACK FROM THE BACK THERE, I JUST
3 KNOW THAT HE WAS OUTSIDE.
4 Q. WHERE?
5 A. I THINK BY THE LIMO.
6 I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHERE.
7 Q. SOMEWHERE AROUND THE FRONT DOOR AREA?
8 A. I'M NOT SURE.
9 Q. WELL, WAS HE NEAR YOU AT THE GARAGE?
10 A. NO.
11 Q. HE WAS TALKING TO THE LIMO DRIVER?
12 A. YES, HE WAS CLOSER TO THE LIMO DRIVER THAN ME.
13 HE WAS JUST OUTSIDE.
14 Q. WAS HE IN THE DRIVEWAY AREA THAT IS AROUND THE
15 FRONT DOOR?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. HE WAS NOT DOWN BY THE ROLLS ROYCE?
18 A. GOSH, I DON'T KNOW.
19 I KNOW HE WAS OUTSIDE.
20 Q. HE WOULD HAVE BEEN WHEREVER THE LIMO DRIVER
21 WAS?
22 IS THAT YOUR RECOLLECTION?
23 A. YEAH, I BELIEVE SO.
24 Q. HE WAS TALKING TO THE LIMO DRIVER?
25 A. I DIDN'T SEE THEM -- HIM EXCHANGING DIALOGUE.
26 Q. BUT THEY WERE STANDING TOGETHER?
27 A. YEAH.
28 Q. OKAY.
80
1 Q. NOW, YOU SAID YOU SAW A GOLF BAG THAT WAS IN
2 THE FRONT AREA.
3 A. UH-HUH.
4 Q. THAT WOULD BE THE DRIVEWAY AREA THAT IS
5 PARALLEL TO THE FRONT DOOR?
6 A. YEAH.
7 THE GOLF BAG WAS RIGHT THERE.
8 Q. CAN YOU DESCRIBE IT FOR US.
9 A. UH-HUH.
10 THE GOLF BAG WAS IN A SWISS ARMY SACK.
11 IT WAS IN -- IT WAS A GOLF BAG, LIKE IT WAS
12 READY TO BE PACKED FOR THE AIRLINES AND I PUT IT IN THE
13 TRUNK.
14 THAT'S WHAT I REMEMBER.
15 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHETHER AT THAT TIME THE FRONT
16 DOOR WAS OPENED OR CLOSED?
17 A. I CAN'T BE 100 PERCENT POSITIVE, BUT --
18 Q. WHEN YOU PUT THE GOLF BAG INTO THE TRUNK, DID
19 YOU HAVE CONVERSATION WITH MR. SIMPSON?
20 A. NO.
21 I PUT THE BAG IN BEFORE I HAD SEEN O.J.
22 THE BAG I PUT IN WHEN THE LIMO DRIVER DROVE UP.
23 Q. YOU DID THAT IMMEDIATELY WHEN HE DROVE UP?
24 A. YES.
25 HE LIFTED THE TRUNK LID AND HE HADN'T PACKED
26 YET.
27 IN MY MIND, I WAS SAYING, "IT'S LATE. HE HAS A
28 FLIGHT TO CATCH."
81
1 Q. WHEN YOU CAME BACK FROM YOUR SECOND TRIP TO THE
2 GARAGE AREA, DID YOU HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH MR. SIMPSON
3 AT THAT TIME WHEN HE WAS OUTSIDE WITH THE LIMO DRIVER?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. CAN YOU TELL US, WHAT WAS THE NATURE OF THAT
6 CONVERSATION?
7 A. I SAID TO HIM, "I HEARD THESE NOISES BEHIND THE
8 BACK OF MY ROOM."
9 Q. WERE YOU STILL VERY EXCITED ABOUT THOSE
10 NOISES?
11 A. WAS I?
12 Q. YES.
13 A. YES.
14 Q. WHAT WAS HIS RESPONSE WHEN YOU TOLD HIM ABOUT
15 THOSE NOISES?
16 A. I SAID TO HIM THAT I HAD A BAD FLASHLIGHT, AND
17 I TOLD HIM I WANTED TO KNOW IF HE HAD -- IF WE HAVE A
18 BETTER FLASHLIGHT TO CHECK THESE NOISES OUT.
19 Q. WHAT WERE YOU THINKING AT THE TIME YOU HEARD
20 THOSE NOISES, MR. KAELIN?
21 IF IT WAS NOT AN EARTHQUAKE, WERE YOU THINKING
22 WHAT ELSE IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN?
23 A. IN MY MIND?
24 Q. YES.
25 A. YES.
26 Q. WHAT?
27 A. THAT IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN SOMEONE TRYING TO BREAK
28 IN.
82
1 Q. THAT'S WHY YOU WENT OUT TO TRY TO LOOK AROUND
2 WITH THE FLASHLIGHT?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. WHEN YOU ASKED MR. SIMPSON FOR A BETTER
5 FLASHLIGHT, WHAT WAS HIS RESPONSE?
6 A. WELL, I ASKED THE LIMO DRIVER, ALSO, IF HE HAD
7 A FLASHLIGHT, AND THEN I ASKED O.J.
8 HE GOES, "YEAH, I THINK WE DO." AND WE MADE --
9 HE WENT TO THE FRONT OF THE HOUSE, AND I WENT BEHIND HIM,
10 TRAILING BEHIND HIM.
11 HE MADE A RIGHT INTO THE KITCHEN AREA AND THEN
12 I HEARD HIM SAY, "OH, IT'S THAT LATE ALREADY? IS THAT THE
13 RIGHT TIME?"
14 Q. THEN WHAT HAPPENED?
15 A. AND HE RETURNED OUT.
16 WE DIDN'T GET THE FLASHLIGHT.
17 Q. SO AFTER MR. SIMPSON SAID, "OH, IT'S THAT LATE
18 ALREADY," HE RAN INTO THE LIMO?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHAT HE WAS WEARING AT THAT TIME?
21 A. I THINK IT WAS SWEATS, DARK SWEATS.
22 Q. DO YOU THINK IT WAS THE SAME DARK SWEATS THAT
23 HE WAS WEARING BEFORE?
24 A. I DON'T KNOW.
25 Q. THEN MR. SIMPSON GOT INTO THE LIMO?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. WHICH GATE DID THE LIMO PULL TOWARDS?
28 A. IT PULLED TOWARDS THE ROCKINGHAM GATE.
83
1 Q. AND DID THEY DRIVE OUT OF THAT GATE?
2 A. YEAH.
3 I PUSHED THE BUTTON TO THE GATE AND IT OPENS UP
4 AND THEY WENT AND I WAVED.
5 Q. THOSE GATES, WHEN THEY ARE CLOSED, DO THEY LOCK
6 AUTOMATICALLY?
7 A. THE ROCKINGHAM GATE, IF I OPEN THE ROCKINGHAM
8 GATE, IT SHUTS AUTOMATICALLY.
9 Q. AND LOCKS?
10 DOES IT LOCK AUTOMATICALLY?
11 A. YOU CAN'T OPEN IT, RIGHT.
12 Q. IN OTHER WORDS, THE ROCKINGHAM GATE AND THE
13 ASHFORD GATE WHEN THEY CLOSE, IF SOMEONE IS ON THE OUTSIDE,
14 CAN THEY GET IN?
15 A. ON THE ASHFORD SIDE, YOU COULD.
16 Q. THE ASHFORD SIDE COULD BE OPENED WITHOUT A KEY?
17 A. UH-HUH; YES, IT COULD.
18 Q. BUT THE ROCKINGHAM SIDE COULD NOT?
19 A. NO.
20 Q. THAT NEEDS A KEY?
21 A. TO THE BEST I KNOW, IT NEEDS A KEY.
22 THERE IS A KEYHOLE IN THE FRONT THAT YOU CAN
23 GET IN AND IT OPENS THE GATE UP.
24 Q. AFTER MR. SIMPSON LEFT, DID YOU HAVE ANY --
25 WHAT DID YOU DO?
26 A. I WAS THINKING IN MY HEAD, "BOY, THAT NOISE
27 STILL BOTHERS ME," AND I WENT TO MY ROOM.
28 Q. WHAT DID YOU DO THEN?
84
1 A. I CALLED UP RACHEL.
2 Q. WHAT HAPPENED NEXT?
3 A. I WAS TALKING TO RACHEL.
4 MY PHONE HAS CALL WAITING, AND DURING THE
5 CONVERSATION, THE CALL WAITING CALL CAME IN.
6 IT WAS FROM O.J.
7 Q. DID HE HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY TO YOU?
8 A. YEAH.
9 HE SAID HE FORGOT TO ALARM THE HOUSE AND I
10 SHOULD ALARM THE HOUSE.
11 AND I SAID, "I HAVE NEVER" -- "I DON'T HAVE THE
12 CODE OR ANYTHING."
13 HE GAVE ME THE CODE TO PUT THE ALARM ON.
14 Q. SO HE ASKED YOU TO ACTIVATE THE ALARM FOR HIM?
15 A. YES, HE DID.
16 Q. HE GAVE YOU THAT ALARM CODE?
17 A. YES, HE DID.
18 Q. FROM THE TIME YOU FIRST SAW HIM TALKING TO THE
19 LIMO DRIVER AND THE TIME HE LEFT AND ON THE PHONE WHEN HE
20 ASKED YOU TO ACTIVATE THE ALARM, CAN YOU DESCRIBE HIS
21 DEMEANOR?
22 A. RUSHED.
23 Q. DID HE SEEM SAD OR DEPRESSED?
24 A. NO.
25 Q. ANGRY OR UPSET?
26 A. NO.
27 Q. OR SCARED?
28 A. NO.
85
1 Q. ANYTHING UNUSUAL ABOUT HIS BEHAVIOR OTHER THAN
2 RUSHED?
3 A. RUSHED TO CATCH THE FLIGHT.
4 Q. WAS THERE ANYTHING IN HIS DEMEANOR THAT
5 APPEARED TO YOU THAT MADE HIM APPEAR DRUGGED OR HIGH?
6 A. NO.
7 Q. AND YOU HAD BEEN LIVING -- WELL, YOU HAD KNOWN
8 HIM AT THAT POINT FOR HOW LONG?
9 A. I MET HIM THROUGH NICOLE.
10 SO I HAVE KNOWN HIM FOR AT LEAST A YEAR.
11 Q. AND YOU HAD BEEN LIVING AT THAT ROCKINGHAM
12 ADDRESS FOR HOW LONG?
13 A. I MOVED IN JANUARY OF '94.
14 Q. SO BY JUNE 12, YOU HAD BEEN LIVING THERE ABOUT
15 6 MONTHS?
16 A. UH-HUH.
17 Q. IS THAT "YES"?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. WOULD YOU SEE HIM ON A FAIRLY REGULAR BASIS
20 WHEN YOU WERE LIVING AT THE ROCKINGHAM ADDRESS?
21 A. NO.
22 Q. HOW OFTEN WOULD YOU SEE HIM?
23 A. HE LEFT TOWN A LOT.
24 SO WHEN HE WAS THERE, IT WAS, YOU KNOW,
25 SOMEWHAT SURPRISING.
26 IN THE LAST 2 WEEKS OR SO, I SAW HIM MORE THAN
27 I EVER HAD SEEN HIM.
28 Q. REALLY?
86
1 IN THE LAST 2 WEEKS, DID YOU SEE HIM DAILY?
2 A. NOT DAILY.
3 JUST I WOULD SEE HIM THIRD DAY ON.
4 I WOULD SEE HIM WITH THE KIDS AND I WOULD HANG
5 OUT SOMETIMES WITH THEM.
6 Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN SOMEONE IN THE CONDITION OF
7 BEING HIGH ON SOME KIND OF DRUG?
8 A. BELIEVE IT, NOT REALLY.
9 I HAVE NEVER DONE A DRUG IN MY LIFE.
10 Q. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANYBODY SMOKE A MARIJUANA?
11 A. SEEN SOMEONE SMOKE IT?
12 YES.
13 Q. HAVE YOU OBSERVED THEIR BEHAVIOR AFTER THAT,
14 SEEN WHAT THEY LOOKED LIKE AFTER THEY SMOKED MARIJUANA?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. HAVE YOU SEEN PEOPLE THAT DRINK?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. AND HOW THEY BEHAVE?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. SO YOU HAVE SEEN PEOPLE IN AN INTOXICATED
21 CONDITION?
22 A. YES.
23 Q. YOU INDICATED THAT YOU WERE ON THE PHONE WITH
24 RACHEL AT THE TIME YOU HEARD THE THUMP.
25 A. YES.
26 Q. HOW LONG AFTER HEARING THE THUMP DID YOU --
27 HOW LONG AFTER YOU MADE THE PHONE CALL DID YOU HEAR THE
28 THUMP?
87
1 DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE QUESTION?
2 A. WHEN I CALLED HER UP, WHEN DID I HEAR IT DURING
3 OUR CONVERSATION? HOW LONG HAD I BEEN ON?
4 Q. YES.
5 A. I'M THINKING ABOUT A HALF-HOUR.
6 Q. SO IT WAS A HALF-HOUR INTO THE CALL?
7 A. I THINK SO.
8 I THINK IN THE PHONE RECORD IT WILL SHOW.
9 Q. HOW LONG AFTER HEARING THE THUMP DID YOU HANG
10 UP THAT PHONE?
11 A. 5 MINUTES AFTER I HEARD THE THUMP.
12 IT WAS PRETTY FAST. I MEAN, WITHIN 1 TO 5
13 MINUTES.
14 Q. WHAT TIME WAS IT THAT MR. SIMPSON CAME TO YOUR
15 ROOM AND ASKED YOU FOR MONEY FOR THE SKY CAP AND SAID YOU
16 ARE GOING TO GO OUT AND EAT?
17 A. IT WAS -- WE WENT TO MC DONALD'S.
18 IT WAS ABOUT 9:10 HE ASKED ME, 9:00 O'CLOCK,
19 RIGHT ABOUT THERE.
20 BECAUSE THERE IS A TIME -- SHALL I?
21 Q. YES.
22 A. OKAY.
23 IT WAS AT 26TH AND SAN VICENTE, AND THERE IS A
24 CLOCK -- I DON'T KNOW IF I SAID IT OR HE SAID IT, BUT IT
25 WAS SAID, "IS THAT THE RIGHT TIME?"
26 Q. WHAT TIME WAS SHOWN?
27 A. 9:15 OR 9:18.
28 Q. THAT WAS WHILE YOU WERE ON THE WAY TO
88
1 MC DONALD'S?
2 A. YES.
3 Q. AND IT WAS 9:15 OR 9:18?
4 A. YEAH. IT WAS ON THE CLOCK.
5 MS. CLARK: I WOULD LIKE TO MARK ANOTHER EXHIBIT.
6 AGAIN, THIS IS A SERIES OF PHOTOGRAPHS. IT
7 WILL BE OF THE HOUSE OF MR. SIMPSON.
8 IF WE CAN MARK IT PEOPLE'S 4.
9 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 4.)
10 Q. BY MS. CLARK: I WILL DIRECT YOUR ATTENTION TO
11 THE PHOTOGRAPH -A SPECIFICALLY.
12 DO YOU RECOGNIZE WHAT IS SHOWN IN THAT
13 PHOTOGRAPH?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. TELL US WHAT IT IS.
16 A. THAT WOULD BE THE BACK AREA OF WHERE MY ROOM
17 WOULD BE.
18 Q. DO YOU SEE THIS BOX JUTTING OUT HERE?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WHAT IS THAT?
21 A. IT'S AN AIR CONDITIONER.
22 Q. THIS IS THE AIR CONDITIONING UNIT YOU DESCRIBED
23 EARLIER AS BEING IN YOUR HOUSE?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. THIS WALL THAT IS SHOWN HERE, IS THAT THE WALL
26 WHERE YOU HEARD THE THUMP?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. THIS SIDE PATH AREA, THAT'S A SIDE PATH AREA
89
1 THAT GOES TO THE HOUSE?
2 A. YEAH, TO -- IT CAN GO COMPLETELY AROUND THE
3 HOUSE. RIGHT; YES.
4 Q. NOW, DOES THAT WALL FACE THE SOUTH?
5 LET ME ASK YOU THIS:
6 DOES THAT FACE SUNSET?
7 DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
8 A. YEAH, THAT WOULD BE GOING -- THAT WALL WOULD
9 FACE SUNSET, YES.
10 Q. SO THAT WOULD BE SOUTH?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHERE YOU PARKED WHEN YOU CAME
13 BACK FROM GETTING FOOD THAT NIGHT?
14 A. WHERE THE CAR WAS PARKED?
15 Q. YES.
16 A. THE ROLLS ROYCE?
17 Q. YES.
18 A. YEAH.
19 WHERE IT'S AT?
20 Q. IN THE PICTURE --
21 A. THE "R."
22 Q. -- ON THE DIAGRAM.
23 YOU HAVE SHOWN US AN "R."
24 A. YEAH.
25 I GOT OUT OF THE CAR. I GOT OUT OF THE CAR
26 AND -- YEAH, THAT'S WHERE THE ROLLS ROYCE IS NORMALLY
27 ALWAYS PARKED, RIGHT THERE.
28 Q. THAT WAS WHERE YOU PARKED WHEN YOU CAME BACK
90
1 THAT NIGHT WITH MR. SIMPSON?
2 A. TO THE BEST OF MY KNOWLEDGE, YES.
3 Q. WHICH WAY WAS THE CAR FACING?
4 A. THE HEADLIGHTS WOULD BE FACING THE GATE THERE.
5 Q. ROCKINGHAM?
6 A. YES.
7 Q. CAN YOU SEE THE PHOTOGRAPH -F ON THIS PEOPLE'S
8 EXHIBIT 2?
9 A. CAN I GET CLOSER?
10 Q. YES.
11 MR. KAELIN, I'M SORRY.
12 DO YOU SEE THE ROLLS ROYCE WHERE IT WAS PARKED
13 WHEN AND YOU MR. SIMPSON CAME BACK FROM EATING?
14 A. THE CAR WOULD BE PARKED -- I KNOW THAT'S WHERE
15 IT PARKED, LIKE THE LIMO AND ALL THAT.
16 SO, FROM MC DONALD'S, IT WOULD BE PARKED THAT
17 WAY.
18 Q. SO YOU SEE THE ROLLS ROYCE ACTUALLY THERE IN
19 PHOTOGRAPH -F?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. CAN YOU POINT TO IT, PLEASE.
22 A. (WITNESS COMPLIES.)
23 MS. CLARK: FOR THE RECORD, THE WITNESS HAS POINTED
24 TO THE CAR CLOSEST TO THE HEDGE IN PHOTOGRAPH -F.
25 Q. IS THAT THE POSITION IT WAS PARKED IN BY
26 MR. SIMPSON WHEN YOU TWO RETURNED FROM MC DONALD'S?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. YOU BOTH GOT OUT OF THE CAR WHEN YOU CAME BACK
91
1 FROM GETTING FOOD?
2 A. YEAH.
3 I WAS OUT OF THE CAR AND AHEAD OF HIM.
4 Q. WHERE WAS HE WHEN YOU LAST SAW HIM?
5 A. HE WAS OUT OF THE CAR AND TURNED TOWARDS THE
6 HOUSE.
7 THEN I WAS ON MY WAY.
8 Q. WAS HE MOVING TOWARDS THE HOUSE AT THAT TIME?
9 A. HE WAS -- I ASSUMED IN MY HEAD HE WAS GOING IN
10 THE HOUSE, BUT IT WAS TURNED THAT WAY AND I DIDN'T SEE ANY
11 MOVEMENT BECAUSE I'M ON MY WAY.
12 AND I SAID, "I'M GOING TO GO TO MY ROOM."
13 Q. SO IT APPEARED HE WAS WALKING TOWARDS THE
14 HOUSE?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHAT THE WEATHER WAS LIKE THAT
17 THAT NIGHT?
18 A. IT WAS -- I THINK IT WAS THAT KIND OF OVERCAST,
19 MAYBE 63.
20 IT WAS COMFORTABLE.
21 Q. A COOL NIGHT?
22 A. YEAH; YES.
23 Q. YOU DON'T REMEMBER IT BEING HOT?
24 A. NO.
25 Q. DO YOU RECALL MR. SIMPSON SWEATING AT THE TIME
26 YOU SAW HIM COMING -- WELL, FIRST OF ALL, LET ME ASK YOU
27 THIS:
28 WHEN YOU WENT OUT TO GET FOOD WITH HIM, WAS HE
92
1 SWEATY, HOT?
2 A. NO.
3 Q. WHEN YOU RETURNED FROM GETTING FOOD, DID HE
4 SEEM TO BE SWEATY OR HOT?
5 A. NO.
6 Q. WHEN YOU SAW HIM LATER THAT NIGHT AND HE WAS
7 GETTING INTO THE LIMO, HE WAS GETTING READY TO GO, DID HE
8 SEEM SWEATY OR HOT?
9 A. NO.
10 Q. YOU DON'T RECALL THAT?
11 A. I DON'T RECALL THAT.
12 Q. WERE YOU SWEATY OR HOT AT THAT TIME?
13 A. NO.
14 Q. AT ANY TIME THAT NIGHT?
15 A. NO.
16 Q. DID YOU -- AT THE POINT WHEN MR. SIMPSON WAS
17 GETTING READY TO LEAVE FOR THE AIRPORT, DID YOU GET A CLOSE
18 LOOK AT HIM IN THE LIGHT?
19 A. NO.
20 I MEAN, IT WAS DARK OUTSIDE AND THE HOUSE
21 WASN'T -- THE LIGHTS WERE PROBABLY NOT -- IT WASN'T LIT UP,
22 THE HOUSE.
23 Q. AND YOU HAD CONTACT WITH HIM -- WOULD YOU CALL
24 IT BRIEF OR WOULD YOU CALL IT LENGTHY AT THAT POINT?
25 A. IT WAS RUSHED, YEAH.
26 Q. DID YOU SPEND A LOT OF TIME TRYING TO OBSERVE
27 HIM AT THAT POINT?
28 A. NO.
93
1 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHAT TIME IT WAS WHEN YOU LEFT
2 WITH THE LIMO DRIVER?
3 A. WHEN THEY LEFT?
4 Q. WHEN THEY LEFT, YES.
5 A. I'M BELIEVING IT WAS ABOUT 11:15 TO 11:20.
6 I REMEMBER -- I DON'T KNOW THE EXACT DIALOGUE,
7 BUT IT SEEMED LIKE I SAID TO THE DRIVER, "ARE YOU GOING TO
8 MAKE IT TIME?" OR IN REFERENCE TO LIKE, "YOU ARE GOING TO
9 HAVE TO BE A FAST DRIVER," OR SOME REFERENCE.
10 I DON'T KNOW MY EXACT WORDS, BUT I KNOW
11 THERE WAS SOME EXCHANGE OF "HMM, YOU GUYS HAD BETTER GET
12 GOING."
13 I KNOW IT WAS PUSHING IT.
14 Q. RIGHT.
15 AND MR. SIMPSON SEEMED TO BE RUSHED?
16 A. UH-HUH.
17 Q. IS THAT "YES"?
18 A. YES. HE WAS RUSHED.
19 Q. FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE JURORS, I'M GOING TO ASK
20 YOU TO JUST GO OVER THE MARKINGS YOU MADE WITH THE BLUE
21 FELT PEN SO THEY CAN SEE WHAT WE HAVE DONE HERE.
22 I'M GOING TO LAY IT FLAT HERE TO KIND OF HELP
23 YOU OUT.
24 OR COULD YOU JUST TRACE OVER WHAT YOU HAVE
25 ALREADY DONE AND INDICATE FOR THE RECORD WHAT YOU ARE DOING
26 AS YOU ARE DOING IT.
27 A. I'M MARKING AN "R" WHERE THE ROLLS ROYCE IS, A
28 "B" WHERE I SAW THE BAG, "G.B." FOR THE GOLF BAG, GATES
94
1 WITH LINES --
2 Q. A LINE AND A CIRCLE.
3 A. OH, AND A CIRCLE.
4 Q. AS YOU PREVIOUSLY INDICATED.
5 A. YEAH.
6 THERE IS A GATE THERE.
7 MS. CLARK: NO FURTHER QUESTIONS.
8 THE FOREPERSON: IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
9 HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
10 THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
11 SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
12
13 (SHORT PAUSE.)
14
15 Q. BY MS. CLARK: MR. KAELIN, WERE YOU -- DO YOU
16 EVER RECALL SEEING A WHITE FORD BRONCO IN THE AREA OF
17 MR. SIMPSON'S RESIDENCE?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. FOR HOW LONG HAD YOU SEEN THAT WHITE BRONCO
20 AROUND THE AREA?
21 A. EVER SINCE I MOVED IN.
22 Q. DID YOU EVER SEE MR. SIMPSON DRIVING IT?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. DID YOU SEE ANYONE ELSE DRIVE IT BESIDES HIM?
25 A. GIGI, THE HOUSEKEEPER, HAD PERMISSION TO DRIVE
26 IT TO THE STORE.
27 I NEVER SAW HER DRIVING IT, BUT I KNOW SHE'S
28 DRIVEN IT.
95
1 Q. BUT PRIMARILY WAS IT MR. SIMPSON WHO DROVE IT?
2 A. YES.
3 MS. CLARK: I WOULD LIKE TO MARK ANOTHER EXHIBIT, IF
4 I MAY, PHOTOGRAPHS LABELED -A THROUGH -H.
5 -A, -B AND -C GO TO A WHITE FORD BRONCO,
6 PEOPLE'S 5.
7 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
8 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 5.)
9 Q. BY MS. CLARK: SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 5, SIR.
10 CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU RECOGNIZE THE CAR SHOWN
11 IN PHOTOGRAPH -A.
12 A. YES.
13 Q. WHAT IS THAT?
14 A. A FORD BRONCO.
15 Q. IS THAT THE CAR THAT YOU SAW FREQUENTLY PARKED
16 AT THE LOCATION WHERE MR. SIMPSON RESIDED AT 360
17 ROCKINGHAM?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. AND THE CAR THAT YOU SAW HIM DRIVE?
20 A. YES, THAT'S THE CAR HE WOULD DRIVE.
21 Q. WHERE DID HE USUALLY PARK IT?
22 A. THE CAR WOULD BE ON THE STREET.
23 Q. ON THE ROCKINGHAM STREET?
24 A. MORE ON ASHFORD, BUT IT COULD BE PARKED ON
25 ROCKINGHAM ALSO.
26 Q. SO THIS ONE WOULD BE PARKED ON THE STREET AND
27 NOT IN THE DRIVEWAY?
28 A. THE BRONCO USUALLY WAS OUT IN THE STREET.
96
1 Q. WHEN YOU WENT OUT THAT NIGHT FOR FOOD WITH
2 MR. SIMPSON, DO YOU RECALL SEEING THE FORD BRONCO PARKED
3 ANYWHERE ON THE PROPERTY?
4 A. I DO NOT.
5 Q. DOES THAT MEAN IT WASN'T THERE OR YOU JUST
6 DIDN'T NOTICE?
7 A. I DIDN'T NOTICE.
8 Q. SO IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN THERE WITHOUT YOU SEEING
9 IT?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. DO YOU RECALL GOING OUT TO THE ROCKINGHAM
12 STREET AT ANY TIME THAT NIGHT?
13 A. WE WENT TO MC DONALD'S THROUGH THE GATE AND
14 MADE A LEFT ON ROCKINGHAM.
15 Q. IS THAT THE ONLY TIME?
16 A. YES.
17 I DON'T KNOW.
18 Q. WHEN YOU CAME BACK IN THE ROLLS ROYCE FROM
19 GETTING FOOD, DID YOU COME IN THROUGH THE ASHFORD SIDE OR
20 ROCKINGHAM SIDE, IF YOU RECALL?
21 A. I DON'T REMEMBER.
22 MARCIA?
23 Q. YES.
24 A. I THINK IT WAS THE ASHFORD SIDE, BUT I DON'T
25 REMEMBER.
26 Q. THAT YOU PULLED INTO WITH HIM --
27 A. YEAH.
28 Q. -- WHEN YOU CAME BACK FROM GETTING FOOD?
97
1 A. YEAH.
2 I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE, BUT I IMAGINE THAT IT
3 WAS.
4 Q. COULD YOU DESCRIBE FOR US THE LAYOUT OF YOUR
5 GUEST HOUSE, WHERE THE WALLS ARE AND WHAT IS ON EITHER SIDE
6 OF THEM.
7 A. YES.
8 Q. OKAY.
9 A. YOU HAVE BEEN THERE.
10 YOU GO DOWN THE STAIRS TO MY ROOM --
11 Q. YES.
12 A. -- THE DOORS OPEN UP, THE POOL IS STRAIGHT
13 ACROSS FROM ME.
14 AND WHEN YOU WALK IN, IF YOU ARE WALKING IN TO
15 THE RIGHT THERE ARE TWO DOORS WHERE YOU HAVE LIKE AN OFFICE
16 AREA.
17 Q. IF YOU WALK INTO YOUR HOUSE, THAT IS.
18 A. IF YOU WALK IN, THERE IS A BED RIGHT AS SOON AS
19 YOU WALK IN. THE BED IS RIGHT THERE.
20 TO MY LEFT, THERE ARE CLOSETS.
21 BEHIND THE CLOSETS WOULD BE MY BATHROOM.
22 AND THEN THE OTHER SIDE OF THE WALL THERE WOULD
23 BE THE OFFICE AREA.
24 Q. NOW, THAT'S ALL INSIDE YOUR HOUSE; RIGHT?
25 A. YEAH, MY HOUSE.
26 Q. THE POOL, DOES THAT FACE THE ASHFORD STREET?
27 A. IT'S RIGHT BEHIND THE HOUSE IN THE MIDDLE OF
28 THE YARD.
98
1 Q. DIRECTLY BEHIND THE HOUSE.
2 THEN THE END OF YOUR GUEST HOUSE, THE WALL OF
3 THAT, IS THERE SOMETHING BETWEEN IT AND THE GARAGE?
4 A. THE -- SAY IT AGAIN?
5 Q. THE WALL THAT WOULD BE CLOSEST TO THE MAIN
6 HOUSE OF YOUR GUEST HOUSE, WHAT IS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF
7 THAT?
8 A. IF YOU SHOW ME THE DIAGRAM, BECAUSE I'M TRYING
9 TO -- I -- HOW WOULD I EXPLAIN THAT?
10 Q. LET ME ASK YOU THIS WAY:
11 IS YOUR GUEST HOUSE CONNECTED TO THE MAIN HOUSE
12 OR SEPARATED COMPLETELY?
13 A. OH, THERE IS A DOOR THAT YOU GO UP SOME STAIRS
14 THAT IS LOCKED ON THE SIDE.
15 IT HAS TO BE OPENED ON THE SIDE OF THE HOUSE.
16 Q. SO YOU COULD GET INTO THE MAIN HOUSE FROM YOUR
17 GUEST HOUSE IF THAT DOOR IS UNLOCKED?
18 A. IF THE DOOR IS UNLOCKED, YOU CAN.
19 Q. IS THAT DOOR KEPT LOCKED?
20 A. YES.
21 I NEVER GO IN THE HOUSE WITHOUT ANYBODY
22 INVITING ME IN.
23 Q. SO WHEN YOU GO IN THE HOUSE, YOU USE THE MAIN
24 ENTRANCE?
25 A. YEAH, I USE THE MAIN ENTRANCE.
26 IF SOMEONE LOCKS THE DOOR, SAYS THE DOOR IS
27 UNLOCKED, THEN I CAN GO IN THAT WAY.
28 Q. SO THEY HAVE TO SPECIFICALLY INFORMED YOU THAT
99
1 THE DOOR IS UNLOCKED --
2 A. YES.
3 LIKE IF GIGI SAYS, "YOU CAN DO LAUNDRY," SHE
4 WOULD UNLOCK THE DOOR AND I WOULD DO MY LAUNDRY.
5 Q. OKAY.
6 SO YOU ARE ALLOWED TO USE THE LAUNDRY
7 FACILITIES OF THE MAIN HOUSE?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. NOW, THE REAR WALL -- SO YOU HAVE -- YOU ARE
10 CONNECTED TO THE MAIN HOUSE?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. IF YOU GO ALL THE WAY BACK THROUGH THE GUEST
13 HOUSE, WHAT IS BEHIND IT?
14 WHAT'S AT THE BACK OF THE PROPERTY?
15 A. THERE ARE TWO OTHER GUEST HOUSES.
16 Q. DO THEY BELONG TO MR. SIMPSON ALSO?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. WAS ANYONE LIVING IN THEM?
19 A. YES.
20 Q. WHO?
21 A. THE ROOM THAT WOULD BE NEXT TO MINE WOULD BE
22 ARNELL SIMPSON, HIS DAUGHTER.
23 Q. WHO IN THE OTHER ONE?
24 A. IT WAS GIGI.
25 I THINK GIGI STAYS THERE AND IN THE HOUSE.
26 Q. DID ANYONE ELSE LIVE ON THE PROPERTY?
27 A. NO.
28 Q. IF SOMEONE WERE JUST WALKING DOWN THE PATH THAT
100
1 IS SHOWN IN A SERIES OF PHOTOGRAPHS MARKED AS PEOPLE'S 4 --
2 YOU COULD SEE IT IN -A, -B, -C AND -D BUT BETTER IN -A AND
3 -B -- IF SOMEONE WERE JUST WALKING DOWN THAT PATH, COULD
4 YOU HEAR IT INSIDE YOUR ROOM?
5 A. IF MY BATHROOM WINDOW IS OPEN.
6 BECAUSE THE BATHROOM WINDOW -- COULD I HEAR
7 SOMEONE WALKING?
8 YES.
9 Q. IF THE BATHROOM WINDOW WAS OPEN?
10 A. IF I WAS IN THE BATHROOM AND THE WINDOW WAS
11 OPEN, YES, I COULD HEAR SOMEONE.
12 Q. IF YOU ARE NOT IN THE BATHROOM, CAN YOU HEAR
13 SOMEONE WALKING DOWN IT?
14 A. IF I'M IN THE BED AND THE WINDOW IS OPEN, IF
15 THEY ARE WALKING LOUD, I PROBABLY COULD HEAR THAT.
16 Q. WERE THE WINDOW OPEN THAT NIGHT?
17 A. I DON'T KNOW.
18 Q. YOU DON'T REMEMBER?
19 A. I DON'T REMEMBER.
20 Q. IF YOU THOUGHT ABOUT IT, CAN YOU TRY AND
21 PICTURE IN YOUR MIND?
22 IT WAS 62 DEGREES --
23 A. MY BATHROOM, I USUALLY HAVE IT CLOSED. BECAUSE
24 WHEN I SHOWER OR SOMETHING, I JUST HAVE IT CLOSED.
25 Q. SO THE BATHROOM WINDOW WAS PROBABLY CLOSED?
26 A. PROBABLY. PROBABLY CLOSED.
27 Q. AT THE TIME YOU HEARD THE THUMP, YOU WERE
28 TALKING ON THE PHONE?
101
1 A. YES.
2 Q. DO YOU THINK WOULD YOU BE ABLE TO HEAR SOMEONE
3 WALKING OUTSIDE ON THAT PATH WHILE YOU WERE TALKING ON THE
4 PHONE?
5 A. I DON'T KNOW.
6 Q. DO YOU RECALL SEEING ANY INJURY TO
7 MR. SIMPSON'S HANDS BEFORE HE GOT INTO THE LIMO?
8 A. NO.
9 Q. YOU DIDN'T NOTICE HIM BREATHING OR WEARING A
10 BANDAID OR ANYTHING?
11 A. NO.
12 Q. THE BAG THAT YOU IDENTIFIED WITH -B, OVER
13 TOWARDS THE ROLLS, WERE THERE ANY LIGHTS THAT ILLUMINATED
14 IT LIKE LIGHTS FROM THE LIMO?
15 A. NO.
16 Q. SO IT WAS IN DARKNESS?
17 A. YEAH.
18 I DON'T KNOW IF THE LIGHTS WERE ON, BUT IT WAS
19 IN DARKNESS.
20 I SAW A BAG WHERE I PUT THE "B," AND IT WAS
21 DARK.
22 Q. COULD THAT BAG HAVE ALREADY BEEN THERE WHEN YOU
23 MADE YOUR FIRST PASS TOWARDS THE GARAGE?
24 A. IT COULD HAVE BEEN.
25 Q. YOU JUST DIDN'T HAPPEN TO NOTICE IT AT THAT
26 TIME?
27 A. CORRECT; YES.
28 Q. WERE YOU WORKING AT THIS TIME?
102
1 WERE YOU EMPLOYED?
2 A. I HAD DONE WORK ON A FILM AND I WAS HELPING OUT
3 WITH AN EXTRAS AGENCY LOOKING FOR PEOPLE FOR FILMS.
4 I WAS HELPING THEM OUT, SO I GUESS I WAS
5 WORKING.
6 Q. AND YOU WERE NOT PAYING ANY RENT?
7 A. NO, I WAS NOT PAYING RENT.
8 Q. WHEN YOU WENT OUT TO INVESTIGATE WHAT THE THUMP
9 WAS, DID YOU EVER GO TO THE AREA SHOWN IN THE PHOTOGRAPHS
10 SHOWN IN -A, -B, -C AND -D SHOWN IN PEOPLE'S 4?
11 A. SAY IT AGAIN.
12 Q. THE AREA SHOWN IN THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS, PEOPLE'S
13 4-A, -B, -C AND -D, DID YOU GO AND LOOK IN THAT AREA WHEN
14 YOU LOOKED TO INVESTIGATE?
15 A. NO, I DID NOT.
16 Q. WHY DIDN'T YOU GO THERE?
17 A. I WAS SCARED.
18 Q. WAS IT DARK IN THAT AREA?
19 A. YES, DARK.
20 AND MY FLASHLIGHT WAS -- IT WAS VERY DIM AND IT
21 WAS LIKE OFF-ON, LIKE BARELY NO LIGHT TO IT.
22 MS. CLARK: I HAVE NOTHING FURTHER.
23 THE FOREPERSON: ANY ADDITIONAL QUESTIONS AS TO BE
24 SUBMITTED FROM THE GRAND JURORS?
25
26 (SHORT PAUSE.)
27
28 THE SERGEANT-AT-ARMS: EXCUSE ME.
103
1 THE JUDGE IN THE OTHER COURTROOM IS ASKING FOR
2 YOU.
3 MR. WHITE: JUST COLLECT THE REST OF THE QUESTIONS.
4
5 (SHORT PAUSE.)
6
7 Q. BY MS. CLARK: WHEN YOU WENT INTO THE KITCHEN
8 WITH MR. SIMPSON TO LOOK FOR A FLASHLIGHT, A BETTER
9 FLASHLIGHT, DID HIS HAIR APPEAR TO BE WET, AS THOUGH HE HAD
10 JUST GOTTEN OUT OF THE SHOWER?
11 A. I DIDN'T EVEN GET INTO THE KITCHEN.
12 THE HOUSE THAT GOES TO THE DOOR OF THE
13 KITCHEN --
14 Q. YOU STAY IN THE DOOR?
15 A. YEAH.
16 HE HAD WALKED INTO THE KITCHEN AREA, AND THEN I
17 HEARD HIM AND HE SAID, "IS IT THAT LATE? IS THAT THE RIGHT
18 TIME?"
19 AND THAT SORT OF LIKE --
20 Q. DID HIS HAIR APPEAR TO BE WET?
21 A. I DON'T -- I DON'T KNOW. I DON'T REMEMBER.
22 I DON'T THINK SO.
23 MS. CLARK: THAT'S IT.
24 THE FOREPERSON: MR. KAELIN, YOU WILL RECALL YOU HAVE
25 PREVIOUSLY BEEN ADMONISHED REGARDING THE SECRECY OF THESE
26 PROCEEDINGS AND MUST HEED THAT ADMONISHMENT.
27 THE WITNESS: I DO.
28 MR. WHITE: I THINK YOU SHOULD READ THE FULL
104
1 ADMONITION.
2 I DON'T THINK HE WAS ADMONISHED BY THE COURT,
3 NOT TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU ARE GOING TO READ.
4 MS. CLARK: I'M GOING ASK THAT THIS WITNESS BE PLACED
5 ON CALL. HE'S AWARE OF THAT.
6 I'M NOT GOING TO BE RELEASING HIM.
7 THE FOREPERSON: MR. KAELIN, BEFORE YOU LEAVE, PLEASE
8 LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO YOU NOW:
9 YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
10 PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
11 ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
12 IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
13 MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
14 INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
15 HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
16 PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
17 I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
18 THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
19 YOU.
20 DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
21 THE WITNESS: YES.
22 MR. WHITE: MR. KAELIN, DO YOU ALSO UNDERSTAND YOU
23 ARE ON CALL TO THE PROSECUTION AND IF THEY CALL YOU, YOU
24 MUST RETURN BACK HERE JUST AS IF YOU HAD BEEN SUBPOENAED?
25 THE WITNESS: YES.
26 MR. WHITE: THANK YOU.
27 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU, MR. KAELIN.
28 YOU ARE EXCUSED.
105
1 THE WITNESS: THANKS.
2 THE FOREPERSON: THE GRAND JURORS HAVE BEEN
3 ADMONISHED REGARDING DISCUSSION OF THE CASE.
4 PLEASE REMEMBER AND FOLLOW HAD ADMONISHMENT.
5 WE ARE IN RECESS AT THIS TIME.
6 WE ARE TO RECONVENE AT 1:30 TODAY.
7
8 (NOON RECESS TAKEN.)
9 -O0O-
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107
1 LOS ANGELES, CALIFORNIA; MONDAY, JUNE 20, 1994
2 1:30 P.M.
3 -O0O-
4
5 (AT THE BEGINNING OF THESE PROCEEDINGS,
6 21 GRAND JURORS WERE PRESENT.)
7
8 THE FOREPERSON: THIS HEARING IS NOW IN SESSION.
9 MADAME SECRETARY?
10 THE SECRETARY: LET THE RECORD REFLECT THE SAME
11 TWENTY GRAND JURORS PRESENT AT THIS MORNING'S ROLL CALL ARE
12 NOW PRESENT.
13 THE FOREPERSON: MISS CLARK, YOU MAY PROCEED.
14 MS. CLARK: YES. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
15 THE PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO CALL THE CORONER,
16 DR. IRWIN GOLDEN.
17 MR. CONN WILL BE PRESENTING HIS TESTIMONY.
18 THE FOREPERSON: DR. IRWIN GOLDMAN?
19 THE WITNESS: GOLDEN.
20 THE FOREPERSON: GOLDEN. THANK YOU.
21 PLEASE RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND.
22 YOU DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR THE TESTIMONY YOU ARE ABOUT
23 TO GIVE IN THE MATTER NOW PENDING BEFORE THE GRAND JURY OF
24 THE COUNTY OF LOS ANGELES SHALL BE THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE
25 TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH, SO HELP YOU GOD.
26 THE WITNESS: I DO.
27 THE FOREPERSON: PLEASE BE SEATED.
28 DR. GOLDEN, PLEASE STATE AND SPELL YOUR FULL
108
1 NAME, SPEAKING DIRECTLY INTO THE MICROPHONE.
2 THE WITNESS: IRWIN L. GOLDEN.
3 I-R-W-I-N G-O-L-D-E-N.
4 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
5 YOU MAY PROCEED, MR. CONN.
6 MR. CONN: THANK YOU.
7
8 IRWIN L. GOLDEN,
9 CALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND JURY,
10 WAS DULY SWORN AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
11
12 E X A M I N A T I O N
13 BY MR. CONN:
14 Q. SIR, CAN YOU TELL US WHAT YOU DO FOR A LIVING.
15 A. I'M A DEPUTY MEDICAL EXAMINER EMPLOYED BY THE
16 DEPARTMENT OF CORONER OF LOS ANGELES COUNTY.
17 Q. HOW LONG HAVE YOU BEEN A DEPUTY MEDICAL
18 EXAMINER?
19 A. SINCE 1980.
20 Q. FOR APPROXIMATELY 14 YEARS THEN?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. WHAT IS IT THAT A DEPUTY MEDICAL EXAMINER DOES?
23 A. WE ARE FORENSIC PATHOLOGISTS WHO PERFORM
24 AUTOPSIES TO DETERMINE THE CAUSE AND MANNER OF DEATH ON THE
25 DECEDENTS THAT COME UNDER OUR JURISDICTION.
26 Q. WHAT TYPE OF TRAINING, EDUCATION AND BACKGROUND
27 DO YOU HAVE THAT ENTITLES YOU TO HOLD THAT POSITION?
28 A. WELL, I'M A DOCTOR OF MEDICINE. I'M A LICENSED
109
1 DOCTOR OF MEDICINE. HOWEVER, I AM A FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST,
2 WHICH MEANS I HAVE HAD 5 ADDITIONAL YEARS OF TRAINING,
3 POST-GRADUATE TRAINING AND RESIDENCY, TO QUALIFY ME AS A
4 BOARD CERTIFIED PATHOLOGIST AND FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST.
5 Q. WHEN DID YOU GET YOUR MEDICAL DEGREE?
6 A. I RECEIVED MY DOCTOR OF MEDICINE DEGREE IN
7 1966.
8 Q. AND WHERE DID YOU GRADUATE FROM?
9 A. I GRADUATED FROM THE UNIVERSITY OF ILLINOIS
10 COLLEGE OF MEDICINE.
11 Q. WHERE DID YOU RECEIVE YOUR TRAINING AS A
12 FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST?
13 A. WELL, THE YEAR OF MY FORENSIC PATHOLOGY
14 TRAINING WAS HERE IN LOS ANGELES COUNTY IN 1980 AND 1981.
15 Q. AND AS PART OF YOUR WORK AS A DEPUTY MEDICAL
16 EXAMINER, HAVE YOU PERFORMED AUTOPSIES SINCE 1980?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. CAN YOU TELL US APPROXIMATELY HOW MANY
19 AUTOPSIES YOU HAVE PERFORMED SINCE 1980?
20 A. THOUSANDS, 5,000, 5,500 AUTOPSIES.
21 Q. IN EACH OF THOSE AUTOPSIES, DID YOU RENDER AN
22 OPINION CONCERNING THE CAUSE OF DEATH?
23 A. YES.
24 Q. WHEN THE CORONER'S OFFICE PERFORMS AN AUTOPSY,
25 DO THEY ASSIGN A CASE NUMBER TO EACH AUTOPSY THAT IS
26 PERFORMED?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE AUTOPSY OF A PERSON
110
1 BY THE NAME OF RONALD GOLDMAN WHICH WAS PERFORMED ON
2 JUNE 14 OF 1994?
3 A. YES.
4 Q. DID YOU PERFORM THAT AUTOPSY?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. WAS A CASE NUMBER ASSIGNED TO THAT CASE?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. DID YOU BRING A COPY OF YOUR REPORT WITH YOU
9 TODAY SO YOU CAN REFER TO THAT PARTICULAR AUTOPSY?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. WOULD YOU PLEASE REMOVE THAT.
12 A. I BELIEVE I TURNED ALL OF THOSE REPORTS IN.
13 Q. OKAY.
14 Q. WE WILL HAND YOU A COPY NOW THAT YOU MIGHT BE
15 ABLE TO USE TO REFRESH YOUR RECOLLECTION.
16 DO YOU SEE BEFORE YOU AN AUTOPSY REPORT WHICH
17 IS MARKED WITH THE NAME RONALD GOLDMAN?
18 A. YES, I DO.
19 Q. WHAT IS THE CASE NUMBER THAT IS ASSIGNED TO
20 THIS PARTICULAR CASE?
21 A. 94-05135.
22 Q. IS THAT DOCUMENT BEFORE YOU A COPY OF THE
23 DOCUMENT THAT YOU BROUGHT WITH YOU TODAY TO TESTIFY BEFORE
24 THE GRAND JURY?
25 A. YES, IT IS.
26 Q. CAN YOU TELL US HOW THIS DOCUMENT WAS PREPARED.
27 A. THIS AUTOPSY REPORT WAS PREPARED ON JUNE 14
28 AFTER I PERFORMED THE AUTOPSY ON RONALD GOLDMAN.
111
1 I PREPARED DIAGRAMS AND NOTES AND DICTATED AN
2 AUTOPSY REPORT, WHICH WAS TRANSCRIBED AND HAS NOW BECOME
3 THE OFFICIAL RECORD OF THIS AUTOPSY.
4 Q. SO ALL OF THOSE DIAGRAMS THAT APPEAR ON THIS
5 REPORT, ARE THOSE DIAGRAMS THAT YOU PERSONALLY SKETCHED
6 OUT?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. AND ALL OF THE NOTES THAT APPEAR IN THE REPORT
9 BEFORE YOU, ARE THOSE NOTES THAT YOU YOURSELF MADE?
10 A. YES.
11 Q. AND THE TYPED PORTION OF THE REPORT WHICH I
12 BELIEVE CONSISTS OF APPROXIMATELY EIGHTEEN PAGES, IS THAT
13 NOTES THAT WERE DICTATED BY YOURSELF?
14 A. YES, THEY WERE.
15 Q. HAVE YOU HAD A CHANCE TO REVIEW THAT REPORT FOR
16 ACCURACY?
17 A. YES, I HAVE.
18 Q. DOES IT APPEAR TO BE AN ACCURATE DESCRIPTION OF
19 THE AUTOPSY TAKE YOU PERFORMED ON RONALD GOLDMAN ON JUNE 14
20 OF 1994?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. NOW, WHEN YOU -- PERHAPS WE SHOULD JUST START.
23 WHAT WAS YOUR CONCLUSION CONCERNING CAUSE OF
24 DEATH FOR THE PERSON WHO IS IDENTIFIED IN THIS REPORT AS
25 RONALD GOLDMAN?
26 A. WELL, HE DIED AS A RESULT OF MULTIPLE SHARP
27 FORCE INJURIES, WHICH MEANS INJURIES THAT ARE EITHER STAB
28 WOUNDS OR CUTTING WOUNDS OR A COMBINATION OF BOTH.
112
1 Q. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A STAB WOUND AND
2 A CUTTING WOUND?
3 A. A STAB WOUND IS A PENETRATING WOUND WITH AN
4 INSTRUMENT, EITHER A BLADED INSTRUMENT OR SOME SHARP
5 INSTRUMENT, WHETHER IT'S A SCREWDRIVER OR -- LET'S GO
6 BACK.
7 IT COULD BE EITHER A BLADED INSTRUMENT, SUCH AS
8 A KNIFE OR SCREWDRIVER OR ICE PICK OR SOMETHING OF THAT
9 NATURE WHERE THE INSTRUMENT IS PLUNGED DIRECTLY INTO THE
10 BODY. AND THAT THE WOUND TRACK IS DEEPER THAN IT IS WIDE.
11 Q. AND A CUTTING WOUND?
12 A. A CUTTING WOUND IS MADE BY A SHARP INSTRUMENT,
13 AND IN THAT CASE, THE WOUND IS LONGER THAN IT'S DEEP.
14 AND YOU CAN HAVE A COMBINATION OF BOTH.
15 Q. AS PART OF YOUR EXAMINATION OF THE BODY OF THIS
16 PERSON, DID YOU EXAMINE EACH OF THE WOUNDS TO HIS BODY?
17 A. YES.
18 Q. DID YOU WRITE A DESCRIPTION OF THOSE WOUNDS IN
19 YOUR AUTOPSY REPORT?
20 A. YES.
21 Q. I'M GOING TO QUESTION YOU ABOUT THOSE WOUNDS
22 AND I'LL BE FOCUSING MAINLY ON THE MOST SIGNIFICANT
23 WOUNDS.
24 CAN YOU TELL US GENERALLY APPROXIMATELY HOW
25 MANY WOUNDS HE HAD TO HIS BODY.
26 A. WELL, THERE WERE NUMEROUS WOUNDS.
27 Q. SOME BEING MORE SEVERE THAN OTHERS?
28 A. YES.
113
1 MR. CONN: IF I MAY APPROACH THE BOARD.
2 THE FOREPERSON: YOU MAY APPROACH AND MAY CONTINUE TO
3 APPROACH THROUGHOUT THE HEARING.
4 MR. CONN: THANK YOU.
5 Q. I WILL FOCUS YOU ON SOME OF THE KEY WOUNDS IN
6 THIS CASE.
7 FOCUSING PARTICULARLY --
8 THE FOREPERSON: EXCUSE ME.
9 MR. CONN, MAY I ASK THAT YOU USE THE
10 MICROPHONE, PLEASE.
11 MR. CONN: YES.
12 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
13 Q. BY MR. CONN: I WOULD LIKE TO FOCUS ON THE
14 INJURIES, FIRST OF ALL, TO THE NECK.
15 DID YOU FIND AND DESCRIBE IN YOUR REPORT AN
16 INJURY TO THE LEFT SIDE OF THE NECK WHICH WAS RATHER LARGE?
17 A. YES.
18 MR. CONN: I HAVE SOME EXHIBITS THAT I WOULD LIKE TO
19 MARK.
20 THERE WILL BE NUMEROUS PHOTOGRAPHS, SO PERHAPS
21 I WILL IDENTIFY THEM AS I GO ALONG.
22 I HAVE A PHOTOGRAPH HERE DEPICTING THE LEFT
23 SIDE OF THE NECK.
24 I WOULD LIKE TO MARK THIS AS PEOPLE'S 6 FOR
25 IDENTIFICATION.
26 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 6.)
27 MR. CONN: I WILL PLACE THIS UP ON THE BOARD FOR ALL
28 TO SEE.
114
1 Q. I'M FOCUSING NOW ON THE INJURY WHICH APPEARS TO
2 BE A RATHER LARGE HOLE IN THE LEFT SIDE OF THE NECK.
3 A. YES.
4 Q. APPROXIMATELY HOW LARGE WAS THAT PARTICULAR
5 WOUND?
6 A. THAT WOUND WAS 3 INCHES IN LENGTH. IT WAS A
7 GAPING, AS YOU CAN SEE, WOUND.
8 AND, AFTER PUTTING IT TOGETHER, IT WAS 3 INCHES
9 IN LENGTH, TAPERING AS YOU -- IF YOU TAPER IT HERE,
10 TAPERING WHERE I INDICATED TOWARDS THE BACK OF THE NECK
11 WHERE IT INVOLVES JUST THE SKIN.
12 Q. WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THAT WOUND AS A CUTTING
13 WOUND OR STABBING WOUND OR BOTH?
14 A. WELL, IT APPEARS TO BE A COMBINATION OF
15 STABBING AND CUTTING WOUNDS.
16 Q. NOW, IT APPEARS TO BE A DEEP WOUND AND I CAN
17 SEE WHY YOU CALL THAT A STABBING WOUND.
18 CAN YOU TELL US WHY IT IS THAT YOU ALSO
19 DESCRIBE THAT AS A CUTTING WOUND?
20 A. WELL, FIRST OF ALL, IT'S VERY WIDE, SO IT'S
21 COMPATIBLE WITH A NARROWER BLADE THAT IS ALSO CUTTING THE
22 SKIN.
23 ALSO, IT APPEARS TO TAPER INTO THAT AREA, WHICH
24 INDICATES THAT THERE MAY HAVE BEEN A SLICING COMPONENT,
25 ALSO.
26 IT IS A STAB WOUND. IT GOES INTO THE NECK AND
27 CONNECTS WITH ANOTHER WOUND BEHIND THE LEFT EAR WHICH IS AT
28 A DISTANCE OF APPROXIMATELY 4 INCHES FROM THAT FIRST
115
1 WOUND.
2 SO IT APPEARS THAT IT'S AT LEAST 4 INCHES DEEP.
3 Q. SO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS THAT THIS WOUND GOING
4 INTO THE NECK IS CONNECTED TO THIS WOUND COMING OUT ON THE
5 LEFT SIDE, ON THE BACK SIDE OF THE LEFT EAR?
6 A. YES.
7 OF COURSE, I CAN'T UNEQUIVOCALLY SAY WHICH ONE
8 CAME FIRST.
9 IT APPEARS THAT THE ONE ON THE LOWER NECK CAME
10 FIRST, BUT IT'S ALSO POSSIBLE THAT IT CAME FROM DOWNWARD
11 AND CAME OUT, DEPENDING ON HOW THE NECK WAS HELD.
12 BUT THEY DO CONNECT.
13 Q. AND THERE ALSO APPEARS TO BE IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH
14 AN INJURY TO THE EAR WHERE THE EAR IS CUT.
15 CAN YOU DETERMINE AT ALL WHETHER THAT INJURY TO
16 THE EAR WAS PART OF ONE CONTINUOUS MOVEMENT FROM THE NECK
17 INTO THE BACK OF THE EAR AND THEN UP TO THE EAR?
18 A. YES.
19 I MADE AN ASSUMPTION BY PLACING A ROD OR PROBE
20 ALONG THE ENTIRE LENGTH THERE. THEY ALL CONNECTED UP.
21 SO IT'S POSSIBLE THAT ONE STABBING MOTION
22 CAUSED ALL THREE OF THOSE, WHICH WOULD MAKE IT ABOUT A
23 6-INCH LONG WOUND.
24 IN OTHER WORDS, FROM HERE, IF I INCLUDE THIS
25 EARLOBE CUT -- CORRECTION, NOT EARLOBE, BUT THE EAR CUT --
26 IF THE EAR CUT AND THIS AND THIS ARE ALL CONNECTED, THERE
27 IS APPROXIMATELY A 6-INCH LONG STABBING WOUND.
28 Q. NOW, BASED ON YOUR EXAMINATION OF THIS WOUND
116
1 AND THE OTHER WOUNDS THAT YOU OBSERVED ON THIS BODY, WERE
2 YOU ABLE TO DETERMINE THE NATURE OF THE WEAPON THAT WAS
3 USED TO INFLICT THAT KIND OF INJURY?
4 A. WELL, SOME OF THE WOUNDS THAT I EXAMINED ON THE
5 BODY APPEARED TO BE CAUSED BY A SINGLE-EDGED BLADED
6 INSTRUMENT, WHICH I WILL SHOW LATER; THAT THERE WAS A DUAL
7 EDGE ON SOME OF THE STAB WOUNDS.
8 Q. FOR THIS PARTICULAR WOUND, DO YOU SEE
9 INDICATIONS OF WHETHER IT WAS A SINGLE-EDGED BLADE OR NOT
10 OR CAN YOU SAY, SIMPLY, IT'S CONSISTENT WITH A SINGLE-EDGED
11 BLADE?
12 A. IT COULD BE, YES.
13 AS I SAY, THERE WAS A SLICING COMPONENT HERE.
14 Q. OKAY.
15 A. IN OTHER WORDS, IT'S POSSIBLE.
16 BUT THERE WAS ALSO A CUTTING COMPONENT. SO I
17 DON'T SEE THAT THIS NECESSARILY WAS A SINGLE EDGE.
18 BUT OTHER WOUNDS WERE.
19 Q. THAT IS THE RIGHT SIDE OR THE LEFT?
20 A. CORRECTION; LEFT SIDE.
21 Q. LEFT SIDE OF THE NECK.
22 MR. CONN: I HAVE ANOTHER PHOTOGRAPH HERE WHICH
23 DEPICTS THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE NECK, AND I WOULD LIKE TO
24 MARK THIS AS PEOPLE'S 7 FOR IDENTIFICATION.
25 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
26 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 7.)
27 Q. BY MR. CONN: NOW, DID YOU ALSO OBSERVE ON THE
28 RIGHT SIDE OF THE NECK A SERIOUS INJURY?
117
1 A. YES.
2 THERE WAS ANOTHER COMBINATION STABBING/CUTTING
3 WOUND ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE NECK SIMILAR TO WHAT I HAVE
4 DESCRIBED ON THE LEFT.
5 AND THAT, WHERE I'M POINTING, IS A STAB WOUND
6 BY FIVE-EIGHTHS OF AN INCH IN LENGTH AND THEN A DEEPER
7 CUTTING WOUND THAT CONNECTS TO THAT STAB WOUND.
8 SO, AGAIN, I BELIEVE I MEASURED THE DISTANCE
9 BETWEEN THOSE TWO WOUNDS.
10 BY CONNECTING THEM AND MEASURING THEM, IT WAS
11 2 INCHES SEPARATION.
12 SO, AGAIN, THAT'S A COMBINATION WOUND,
13 COMPATIBLE WITH THE BLADE GOING THROUGH THE NECK AND
14 CREATING THOSE TWO INJURIES.
15 NOW, ON THIS ONE, THERE IS CLEARLY EVIDENCE OF
16 A SINGLE-EDGED BLADE ON ONE OF THE WOUNDS.
17 Q. WHERE DO YOU SEE EVIDENCE OF THAT?
18 A. RIGHT HERE.
19 Q. SO YOU ARE REFERRING TO THE SMALLER WOUND WHICH
20 APPEARS TO BE THE RIGHT OF THAT LARGE OPEN WOUND?
21 A. YES.
22 I PUT THE WOUND TOGETHER.
23 THERE IS A POINTED END AND A BACK END OR SPLIT
24 END, WHICH IS COMPATIBLE WITH A SINGLE-EDGED BLADE.
25 Q. SO REFERRING TO THE -- REFERRING TO THE INJURY
26 IN THE FRONT OF THE PHOTOGRAPH --
27 A. YES.
28 Q. -- WHICH SIDE WOULD BE THE SIDE THAT WOULD BE
118
1 CONSISTENT WITH THE SHAPER END OR THE SINGLE EDGE OF THE
2 BLADE?
3 A. THIS ONE.
4 Q. IT WOULD BE THAT PORTION WHICH IS CLOSEST TO
5 THE FRONT OF THE MAN'S FACE.
6 IS THAT CORRECT?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. SO WOULD THIS INDICATE TO YOU THAT THE
9 DIRECTION OF THE INJURY WAS FROM THE BACK OF THE NECK
10 TOWARDS THE FRONT OF THE NECK?
11 A. IT COULD GO EITHER WAY.
12 Q. IT APPEARS THAT THE WOUND TO THE BACK OF THE
13 NECK IS MUCH LARGER THAN THE WOUND TO THE FRONT?
14 A. WELL, IT'S POSSIBLE IT WENT INTO THE BACK OF
15 THE NECK, THEN A SLICE, THEN PUNCTURED OUT FROM THE FRONT.
16 I HAVE ALSO SEEN -- IT'S POSSIBLE THAT IT WENT
17 IN THROUGH THE FRONT AND THEN EITHER THE KNIFE OR THE HEAD
18 MOVED AND THEN IT CUT.
19 SO EITHER WAY IS POSSIBLE.
20 MR. CONN: I HAVE ANOTHER PHOTOGRAPH THAT I WOULD
21 LIKE TO MARK AS PEOPLE'S 8 FOR IDENTIFICATION WHICH DEPICTS
22 THE FRONT OF THIS MAN'S THROAT.
23 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 8.)
24 Q. BY MR. CONN: NOW, THAT WE HAVE SEEN BOTH SIDES
25 OF THE NECK, CAN YOU TELL US IF YOU HAD ALSO OBSERVED
26 INJURY TO THE FRONT OF THE MAN'S THROAT?
27 A. YES, I DID.
28 THERE ARE TWO HORIZONTAL CUTS RIGHT AT -- GOING
119
1 RIGHT ACROSS THE LARYNX OR THE ADAM'S APPLE REGION.
2 THE NECK IS THROWN BACK, SO THEY LOOK FARTHER
3 APART.
4 WHEN THE HEAD IS FORWARD, THEY ARE ACTUALLY
5 CLOSER TOGETHER WHEN THE HEAD IS FORWARD.
6 THESE ARE APPROXIMATELY -- ONE WAS 4 INCHES AND
7 THE OTHER WAS 3 INCHES IN LENGTH. AND THEY INVOLVE THE
8 SKIN ONLY. THEY ARE NOT FATAL INJURIES.
9 Q. NOW, DO YOU CLASSIFY WOUNDS ACCORDING TO
10 WHETHER THEY OCCURRED BEFORE DEATH, DURING THE TIME OF
11 DEATH OR AFTER DEATH?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. DO YOU HAVE A SPECIFIC TERM THAT YOU USED FOR
14 THOSE CATAGORIES OF WOUNDS?
15 A. YES.
16 Q. WHAT DO YOU CALL THAT?
17 A. WELL, IF THE WOUND OCCURS BEFORE DEATH, THEY
18 ARE CALLED ANTEMORTEM, A-N-T-E MORTEM; AFTER DEATH IS
19 POSTMORTEM; AND AT OR AROUND THE TIME OF THE DEATH, MEANING
20 SHORTLY BEFORE OR SHORTLY AFTER, WE CALL IT PERIMORTEM,
21 P-E-R-I MORTEM.
22 Q. HOW CAN YOU TELL IF A WOUND TOOK PLACE,
23 INFLICTED BEFORE DEATH, AT THE TIME OF DEATH OR AFTER
24 DEATH?
25 A. WELL, THERE ARE NO ABSOLUTES. BUT THE WOUNDS
26 THAT OCCUR BEFORE DEATH ARE ASSOCIATED WITH BRUISING AND
27 HEMORRHAGING INTO THE TISSUES. THEY ARE CLEARLY DARK RED,
28 SHOWING BLEEDING INTO THE TISSUES.
120
1 THESE CLEARLY INDICATE THAT THERE WAS WHAT WE
2 CALL VITAL ACTIVITY; IN OTHER WORDS, BLOOD PRESSURE TO
3 CAUSE THE BRUISING ASSOCIATED WITH THE WOUND.
4 Q. SO IS THAT BECAUSE WHEN SOMEONE DIES, THE HEART
5 STOPS BEATING AND, AFTER THAT, THERE IS NO BLEEDING INTO
6 THE WOUNDS?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. NOW, THE WOUNDS THAT WE LOOKED AT SO FAR, WHICH
9 ARE PEOPLE'S 6, 7 AND 8, THE INJURIES TO THE NECK HERE, CAN
10 YOU TELL US ANYTHING ABOUT THE TIME THAT THOSE WOUNDS MAY
11 HAVE BEEN INFLICTED.
12 A. WELL, THE TWO DEEP WOUNDS ON EACH SIDE OF THE
13 NECK OCCURRED BEFORE DEATH. THERE IS EXTENSIVE BRUISING
14 ALONG OR IN THE TISSUES.
15 THE TWO WOUNDS ACROSS THE LARYNX, THOSE
16 SUPERFICIAL ONES DON'T HAVE AS MUCH BLEEDING.
17 I THOUGHT THAT IT'S POSSIBLE THAT THEY OCCURRED
18 ON OR ABOUT THE TIME OF DEATH; IN OTHER WORDS, WHEN BLOOD
19 PRESSURE HAD DROPPED CONSIDERABLY. IN OTHER WORDS, MAYBE
20 LATER ON IN THE -- OR DURING THE ASSAULT OR THE SEQUENCE.
21 MR. CONN: I HAVE ANOTHER PHOTOGRAPH WHICH I WOULD
22 LIKE TO MARK AS PEOPLE'S 9 FOR IDENTIFICATION WHICH DEPICTS
23 THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE FACE.
24 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
25 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 9.)
26 Q. BY MR. CONN: DID YOU ALSO OBSERVE INJURIES TO
27 THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE FACE?
28 A. YES.
121
1 Q. WHAT TYPE OF INJURIES DID YOU OBSERVE THERE?
2 A. THERE ARE CUTS OF THE SKIN AND A LOT OF
3 ABRASIONS OR SCRATCHES, PHYSICALLY, ON THE CHEEK AND GOING
4 UP TO THE TEMPLE REGION.
5 THERE ARE FIVE SKIN CUTS INVOLVING THE CHEEK
6 WHICH ARE NONFATAL WHICH INVOLVE THE SKIN ONLY AND NUMEROUS
7 ABRASIONS AND SCRAPES ON THE SKIN.
8 Q. NOW, WHEN YOU SAY, "FIVE SKIN CUTS," ARE YOU
9 REFERRING TO INJURIES THAT ARE CONSISTENT WITH A SHARP
10 WEAPON?
11 A. YES; YES.
12 THEY DEFINITELY HAD -- THEY WERE ALL NARROW
13 CUTS, ONE OF WHICH APPEARED TO BE CAUSED BY A SINGLE-ENDED
14 BLADE.
15 THAT WOULD BE THE ONE --
16 Q. HERE'S THE POINTER.
17 I WILL DESCRIBE FOR THE RECORD, YOU ARE
18 POINTING TO A WOUND WHICH APPEARS TO BE ON THE RIGHT CHEEK
19 WHICH IS A WOUND SOMEWHAT NEAR THE NOSE.
20 IS THAT CORRECT?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. AT LEAST, THE WAY IT APPEARS ON THE PHOTOGRAPH,
23 IT'S THE AREA THAT IS INJURED CLOSEST TO THE NOSE.
24 IS THAT CORRECT?
25 A. YES.
26 IT APPEARS TO BE A 5/8-INCH LONG WOUND WITH A
27 VERY NARROW DULL OR BACK END, COMPATIBLE WITH A
28 SINGLE-EDGED BLADE.
122
1 Q. WHICH SIDE OF THAT WOUND WOULD BE THE DULL
2 SIDE?
3 A. THE ONE TOWARDS THE FRONT OF THE FACE.
4 Q. AND IT'S WITHIN THE SAME GENERAL AREA THAT YOU
5 ALSO OBSERVED FOUR OTHER TYPES OF INJURIES THAT MIGHT HAVE
6 BEEN CAUSED BY PUNCTURING WITH A SHARP OBJECT?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. DID YOU ALSO OBSERVE AN INJURY TO THE RIGHT
9 EAR?
10 A. LEFT EAR.
11 Q. ON --
12 A. YES. I UNDERSTAND.
13 THERE WAS A STAB WOUND OF THE RIGHT EAR, YES.
14 THERE WAS A STAB WOUND OF THE RIGHT EARLOBE
15 THAT WENT THROUGH THE EARLOBE AND STRUCK THE BONE AT THE
16 BASE OR BEHIND THE EAR, DID NOT GO INTO THE BONE.
17 NOW, THIS AGAIN, IT APPEARED TO BE CAUSED BY A
18 SINGLE-EDGED BLADED INSTRUMENT.
19 Q. WHEN YOU PERFORM AN EXAMINATION LIKE THIS, DO
20 YOU ALSO SHAVE THE SCALP TO EXAMINE OR -- SHAVE THE HEAD TO
21 EXAMINE THE SCALP?
22 A. YES.
23 MR. CONN: I WOULD LIKE TO MARK ANOTHER PHOTOGRAPH AS
24 PEOPLE'S 10 FOR IDENTIFICATION.
25 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
26 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 10.)
27 Q. BY MR. CONN: SHOWING YOU PEOPLE'S 10 FOR
28 IDENTIFICATION.
123
1 CAN YOU TELL US WHAT IT IS YOU SEE DEPICTED IN
2 THAT PHOTOGRAPH.
3 A. YES.
4 AFTER THE SCALP WAS SHAVED, THERE WAS A CUTTING
5 WOUND OF THE RIGHT SIDE OF THE SCALP WHICH WENT IN JUST
6 THROUGH THE SCALP, DID NOT GO INTO THE BONE.
7 THIS WOULD BE COMPATABLE WITH THE BLADED
8 INSTRUMENT, PERHAPS THE TIP OF A BLADED INSTRUMENT OR SOME
9 SORT OF CUTTING INSTRUMENT THAT COULD CAUSE SUCH AN INCISED
10 WOUND.
11 THE FOREPERSON: EXCUSE ME, MR. CONN.
12 IT'S NECESSARY FOR THE GRAND JURY TO TAKE A
13 BREAK AT THIS TIME.
14 MR. CONN: THANK YOU.
15 THE FOREPERSON: DR. GOLDEN, YOU ARE EXCUSED AND
16 ORDERED TO RETURN IN 5 MINUTES WITHOUT FURTHER SUBPOENA,
17 REMINDER OR ORDER.
18 DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
19 THE WITNESS: YES.
20 THE FOREPERSON: DR. GOLDEN, BEFORE YOU LEAVE, PLEASE
21 LISTEN VERY CAREFULLY TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY TO YOU NOW:
22 YOU ARE ADMONISHED NOT TO REVEAL TO ANY OTHER
23 PERSON, EXCEPT AS ORDERED BY THE COURT, WHAT QUESTIONS WERE
24 ASKED OF YOU AND WHAT RESPONSES WERE GIVEN.
25 IN ADDITION, YOU ARE NOT TO REVEAL ANY OTHER
26 MATTERS CONCERNING THE NATURE OR SUBJECT OF THE
27 INVESTIGATION WHICH YOU LEARNED DURING YOUR APPEARANCE
28 HERE, UNLESS AND UNTIL SUCH TIME AS A TRANSCRIPT OF THESE
124
1 PROCEEDINGS IS MADE PUBLIC.
2 I WISH TO ADVISE YOU ALSO THAT A VIOLATION OF
3 THIS ORDER CAN BE THE BASIS OF A CONTEMPT CHARGE AGAINST
4 YOU.
5 DO YOU UNDERSTAND?
6 THE WITNESS: YES.
7 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
8 YOU ARE EXCUSED.
9
10 (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
11 JURY HEARING ROOM.)
12
13 THE FOREPERSON: THE GRAND JURORS HAVE BEEN
14 ADMONISHED REGARDING DISCUSSION OF THE CASE.
15 PLEASE REMEMBER AND FOLLOW THE ADMONISHMENT.
16 WE ARE IN RECESS FOR 5 MINUTES.
17
18 (AFTERNOON RECESS TAKEN.)
19 -O0O-
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
125
1 THE FOREPERSON: THIS HEARING IS NOW IN SESSION.
2 MADAME SECRETARY?
3 THE SECRETARY: LET THE RECORD REFLECT THE SAME
4 TWENTY GRAND JURORS PRESENT AT THIS MORNING'S ROLL CALL ARE
5 NOW PRESENT.
6 THE FOREPERSON: MR. CONN, YOU MAY PROCEED.
7 MR. CONN: THANK YOU.
8 THE PEOPLE WOULD LIKE TO CALL THE CORONER AT
9 THIS TIME.
10 THE FOREPERSON: DR. GOLDEN, YOU WILL RECALL THAT YOU
11 HAVE PREVIOUSLY BEEN SWORN AND ARE STILL UNDER OATH.
12 THE WITNESS: YES.
13 THE FOREPERSON: IF YOU WOULD STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE
14 RECORD, PLEASE.
15 THE WITNESS: IRWIN L. GOLDEN.
16 THE FOREPERSON: YOU MAY PROCEED.
17 MR. CONN: THANK YOU.
18
19 IRWIN L. GOLDEN,
20 RECALLED AS A WITNESS BEFORE THE LOS ANGELES COUNTY GRAND
21 JURY, HAVING BEEN PREVIOUSLY DULY SWORN, RESUMED THE STAND
22 AND TESTIFIED FURTHER AS FOLLOWS:
23
24 E X A M I N A T I O N (RESUMED)
25 BY MR. CONN:
26 Q. IN ADDITION TO THE WOUNDS THAT YOU HAVE
27 DESCRIBED TO THE NECK AND THE FACE AND THE HEAD AREA, DID
28 YOU ALSO OBSERVE WOUNDS TO THE BODY?
126
1 A. YES.
2 Q. WHAT TYPE OF INJURIES DO YOU RECALL SEEING TO
3 THE BODY?
4 A. THERE WERE FIVE STAB WOUNDS TO THE BODY.
5 MR. CONN: ONCE AGAIN, I WILL FOCUS JUST ON SOME OF
6 THE KEY WOUNDS THAT STAND OUT.
7 I WOULD LIKE TO MARK AT THIS TIME AS
8 PEOPLE'S 11 FOR IDENTIFICATION A PHOTO WHICH APPEARS TO
9 DEPICT THE RIGHT-HAND SIDE OR THE RIGHT SIDE OF A BODY.
10 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 11.)
11 Q. CAN YOU TELL US WHAT IT IS THAT IS DEPICTED IN
12 THIS PHOTOGRAPH.
13 A. THERE ARE TWO STAB WOUNDS OF THE RIGHT SIDE OF
14 THE CHEST AND ONE SMALL STAB WOUND OF THE RIGHT FLANK
15 REGION.
16 Q. AND WHAT TYPE OF WOUNDS ARE THEY?
17 HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE TWO LARGE WOUNDS
18 THAT APPEAR AT THE TOP OF THAT PHOTOGRAPH?
19 A. THEY ARE STAB WOUNDS THAT PENETRATE THE CHEST
20 OF THE DECEDENT, INJURING THE LUNG AND CAUSING INTERNAL
21 BLEEDING.
22 Q. WHEN YOU EXAMINED THESE WOUNDS, DO YOU MEASURE
23 ALL THE WOUNDS BOTH IN TERMS OF THE LENGTH AND THE WIDTH
24 AND DEPTH OF THE WOUND?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. IN REGARD TO THIS PHOTOGRAPH I HAVE SHOWN YOU,
27 CAN YOU DESCRIBE THE MEASUREMENTS OF THOSE PARTICULAR
28 WOUNDS, STARTING WITH THE LARGER ONE THAT APPEARS ON THE
127
1 LEFT-HAND SIDE OF THE PHOTOGRAPH.
2 A. THE LARGER ONE MEASURED FIVE-EIGHTHS OF AN INCH
3 AND APPEARED TO BE -- APPEARED TO HAVE ONE DULL OR
4 SQUARED-OFF END; IN OTHER WORDS, COMPATIBLE WITH A
5 SINGLE-EDGED BLADED INSTRUMENT.
6 AND THAT WOUND PASSED INTO THE CHEST AT A
7 MEASURED DEPTH THAT I DETERMINED TO BE APPROXIMATELY 4
8 INCHES.
9 Q. AND THE SMALLER WOUND?
10 A. THAT WAS A STAB WOUND THAT MEASURED ONE-HALF
11 INCH IN LENGTH -- CORRECTION.
12 THE -- ACTUALLY, THE FIRST ONE MEASURED
13 FIVE-EIGHTHS. THIS IS THE SMALLER ONE HERE. THAT'S
14 FIVE-EIGHTHS OF AN INCH IN LENGTH.
15 THIS ONE IS 1-1/2 INCHES IN LENGTH. THAT'S
16 LONGER.
17 Q. SO THE ONE THAT IS FIVE-EIGHTHS OF AN INCH IN
18 LENGTH, HOW DEEP IS THAT WOUND?
19 A. 4 INCHES.
20 Q. AND THE LARGER WOUND, HOW LARGE IS THAT ONE?
21 A. 2 TO 3 INCHES.
22 MR. CONN: I HAVE ANOTHER PHOTOGRAPH WHICH I WOULD
23 LIKE TO SHOW YOU AT THIS TIME WHICH I HAVE MARKED AS
24 PEOPLE'S 12 FOR IDENTIFICATION.
25 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 12.)
26 Q. BY MR. CONN: CAN YOU TELL US WHAT IT IS THAT
27 IS DEPICTED IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH.
28 A. THAT IS A STAB WOUND ON THE OUTSIDE OF THE LEFT
128
1 THIGH.
2 IT IS A STAB WOUND BECAUSE IT GOES INTO THE
3 THIGH FOR APPROXIMATELY 3 TO 3-1/2 INCHES FROM THE OUTSIDE
4 TO THE INSIDE AND PASSES INTO THE MUSCLE OF THE THIGH.
5 AND, IN ADDITION TO WHAT I MENTIONED, IT DOES
6 APPEAR TO BE CAUSED BY A SINGLE-EDGED BLADE.
7 I DID DETERMINE THAT THERE WAS DULL OR SQUARE
8 END AND ONE POINTED END. SO IT IS COMPATIBLE WITH A
9 SINGLE-EDGED BLADE.
10 Q. AND WHAT WAS THE DEPTH OF THAT WOUND?
11 A. 3, 3-1/2 INCHES.
12 Q. I HAVE ONE MORE WOUND THAT I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW
13 YOU ON THE BODY.
14 MR. CONN: IF I MAY MARK THIS PHOTOGRAPH AS PEOPLE'S
15 13 FOR IDENTIFICATION.
16 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
17 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 13.)
18 Q. BY MR. CONN: THIS PHOTOGRAPH DEPICTS THE MAN
19 LYING ON HIS LEFT SIDE AND LOOKING AT HIS BACK.
20 DOES THIS APPEAR TO BE A STAB WOUND WHICH IS ON
21 HIS LEFT SIDE NEAR HIS BACK?
22 A. YES.
23 THAT WAS A STAB WOUND, MEASURED ABOUT
24 THREE-FOURTHS OF AN INCH IN LENGTH, AND IT WENT INTO THE
25 ABDOMEN FOR APPROXIMATELY 5-1/2 INCHES AND PERFORATED THE
26 ABDOMINAL AORTA, WHICH IS A MAJOR ARTERY, WHICH CAUSED
27 BLEEDING INTO THE ABDOMEN.
28 SO MY MEASUREMENT WAS PROBABLY 5-1/2 INCHES
129
1 FROM LEFT TO RIGHT.
2 Q. SO THIS VICTIM WAS STABBED ON BOTH SIDES OF HIS
3 TORSO AS WELL AS HIS ABDOMEN?
4 A. YES; THREE TIMES ON THE CHEST, ONCE ON THE LEFT
5 SIDE OF THE ABDOMEN, ONCE ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE THIGH.
6 Q. LET ME ASK YOU THIS:
7 CAN YOU TELL US WHAT IS MEANT BY THE TERM
8 "DEFENSIVE WOUNDS."
9 A. THOSE ARE INJURIES, WHETHER CUTTING WOUNDS OR
10 BRUISES OR SCRAPES OR ABRASIONS, WHICH ARE ON THE
11 EXTREMITIES, PARTICULARLY CAN BE ON THE HANDS OR THE ARMS,
12 WHICH ARE THE RESULT OF THE VICTIM TRYING TO WARD OFF THE
13 BLOWS CAUSED BY THE ASSAILANT.
14 THEY CAN EITHER BE BRUISES, ABRASIONS OR IN A
15 CUTTING, SHARP FORCE SITUATION, THEY COULD BE CUTS OR STAB
16 WOUNDS ON THE ARMS OR HANDS.
17 Q. DID YOU OBSERVE DEFENSIVE WOUNDS TO THIS BODY?
18 A. YES.
19 Q. I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU WHAT I HAVE MARKED AS
20 PEOPLE'S 14 FOR IDENTIFICATION.
21 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 14.)
22 Q. BY MR. CONN: CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THAT
23 PHOTOGRAPH DEPICTS.
24 A. THAT IS THE PALM OF THE RIGHT HAND OF THE
25 DECEDENT SHOWING CUTTING WOUNDS ON THE PALM.
26 THERE WAS ONE AT THE BASE OF THE INDEX FINGER,
27 ONE ON THE PALM OF THE RIGHT HAND AND ONE -- AND ONE AT THE
28 PALM OF THE RIGHT HAND.
130
1 Q. SO I'M POINTING NOW WITH THE POINTER TO WHAT
2 APPEARS TO BE AN INJURY RIGHT HERE, WHICH WOULD BE ON THE
3 PALM NEXT TO THE THUMB.
4 IS THAT ONE OF THE WOUNDS YOU ARE REFERRING TO?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THAT AS A DEFENSIVE WOUND?
7 A. YES.
8 THAT IS A CLASSICAL DEFENSIVE WOUND WHERE THE
9 VICTIM MAY HAVE BEEN ATTEMPTING TO GRAB OR WARD OFF THE
10 BLOW CAUSED BY THE WEAPON.
11 Q. WERE YOU ABLE TO DETERMINE IF THERE WAS A SHARP
12 EDGE INDICATED AS TO THIS PARTICULAR WOUND?
13 A. WELL, THESE WOUNDS, SINCE THEY ARE ONLY
14 INVOLVING THE SKIN, HAVE PREDOMINATELY JUST SHARP EDGES. I
15 DID NOT SEE ANY DEFINITE DULL END.
16 THAT MAY BE BECAUSE IT'S A COMBINATION OF
17 CUTTING AND STABBINGS, SO --
18 Q. THE SECOND WOUND YOU ARE REFERRING TO ON THE
19 RIGHT HAND, IS THAT WHAT APPEARS TO BE HERE ON THIS
20 PHOTOGRAPH BETWEEN THE FIRST AND SECOND FINGER, FIRST AND
21 MIDDLE FINGER OF THE HAND?
22 A. YES. YES, IT IS.
23 MR. CONN: I HAVE A SECOND PHOTOGRAPH WHICH I WOULD
24 LIKE TO MARK AT THIS TIME AS PEOPLE'S 15 FOR
25 IDENTIFICATION.
26 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 15.)
27 Q. BY MR. CONN: CAN YOU TELL US WHAT IT IS THAT IS
28 DEPICTED IN THAT PHOTOGRAPH.
131
1 A. THAT IS THE LEFT HAND OF THE DECEDENT, SHOWING
2 A NUMBER OF INJURIES TO THE KNUCKLES.
3 IN PARTICULAR, THERE ARE MANY ABRASIONS OR
4 SCRAPES INVOLVING THE KNUCKLES, PARTICULARLY OF THE INDEX
5 FINGER AND ALSO ON THE TOP OF THE LEFT HAND, A NUMBER OF
6 ABRASIONS.
7 Q. ALSO, I WOULD LIKE TO SHOW YOU ONE MORE
8 PHOTOGRAPH CONCERNING THIS VICTIM AT THIS TIME WHICH I
9 WOULD LIKE TO MARK AS PEOPLE'S 16 FOR IDENTIFICATION.
10 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
11 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 16.)
12 Q. BY MR. CONN: CAN YOU TELL US WHAT IT IS THAT
13 THAT PHOTOGRAPH DEPICTS.
14 A. YES.
15 THAT IS THE LEFT HAND OF THE DECEDENT, SHOWING
16 A CUTTING WOUND COMPATIBLE WITH THE DEFENSE WOUND AT THE
17 WEB OF THE LEFT THUMB.
18 Q. SO, AS I SEE HERE AT THE WEB OF THE LEFT THUMB,
19 THERE APPEARS TO BE WOUNDS -- A WOUND.
20 IS THAT THE ONE YOU ARE REFERRING TO?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. THERE ALSO APPEARS TO BE ANOTHER INJURY OVER TO
23 THE OUTSIDE OF THE HAND.
24 DID YOU EXAMINE THAT INJURY, TOO?
25 A. APPARENTLY I DON'T HAVE THAT DESCRIBED. I
26 DON'T HAVE THAT DESCRIBED IN MY REPORT.
27 IT APPEARS TO BE SOME SORT OF A SKIN CUT.
28 Q. NOW, IN REGARD TO EACH OF THESE PHOTOGRAPHS
132
1 THAT I HAVE SHOWN YOU, 6 THROUGH 16, ARE EACH OF THESE
2 PHOTOGRAPHS PHOTOGRAPHS OF THE SAME PERSON THAT YOU
3 EXAMINED ON JUNE 14 WHO WAS IDENTIFIED TO YOU AS RONALD
4 GOLDMAN?
5 A. YES.
6 Q. AND EACH OF THESE ARE MARKED WITH THE SAME CASE
7 NUMBER, WHICH IS 94-5135?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. THEY WERE ALL TAKEN AT THE TIME OF THE
10 AUTOPSY?
11 A. YES.
12 Q. I WILL TAKE THOSE DOWN AND SHOW YOU SOME
13 ADDITIONAL PHOTOGRAPHS.
14 ON THAT SAME DATE, DID YOU ALSO CONDUCT AN
15 AUTOPSY UPON A PERSON IDENTIFIED AS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON?
16 A. YES.
17 Q. WAS THERE A CASE NUMBER ASSIGNED TO THAT BODY?
18 A. YES. 94-05136.
19 Q. ONCE AGAIN, DID YOU BRING A COPY OF THAT REPORT
20 WITH YOU TODAY TO ASSIST YOU IN YOUR TESTIMONY?
21 A. YES.
22 Q. IS THIS A REPORT THAT, ONCE AGAIN, YOU
23 PERSONALLY PREPARED BY DICTATION?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. AND HAVE YOU REVIEWED IT FOR ACCURACY?
26 A. YES.
27 Q. DOES IT ALSO CONTAIN DIAGRAMS DEPICTING THE
28 INJURIES INFLICTED TO THE BODY?
133
1 A. YES.
2 Q. ARE THOSE DIAGRAMS SOMETHING WHICH YOU,
3 YOURSELF, MADE?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. NOW, AS TO THIS BODY, DID YOU ALSO MAKE A
6 DETERMINATION AS TO THE CAUSE OF DEATH?
7 A. YES.
8 Q. WHAT WAS THE CAUSE OF DEATH IN THIS PARTICULAR
9 CASE?
10 A. SHE DIED OF A CUTTING WOUND OR INCISED WOUND OF
11 THE NECK ALONG WITH MULTIPLE STAB WOUNDS OF THE NECK.
12 Q. WOULD YOU DESCRIBE THE LARGEST INJURY THAT YOU
13 OBSERVED TO THIS BODY.
14 A. YES.
15 THERE WAS A LARGE GAPING WOUND ACROSS THE NECK
16 THAT WENT THROUGH THE RIGHT -- RIGHT THROUGH THE LARYNGEAL
17 REGION BACK TO THE SPINE.
18 AND THE WOUND CUT BOTH CAROTID ARTERIES AND
19 BOTH JUGULAR VEINS, BOTH SIDES, LEFT AND RIGHT.
20 MR. CONN: AT THIS TIME, I HAVE A PHOTOGRAPH WHICH I
21 WOULD LIKE TO MARK AS PEOPLE'S 17 FOR IDENTIFICATION.
22 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
23 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 17.)
24 Q. BY MR. CONN: SHOWING YOU THE WOUND THAT IS
25 DEPICTED IN PEOPLE'S 17 FOR IDENTIFICATION.
26 IS THAT THE WOUND YOU HAVE DESCRIBED?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. WHAT WAS THE MEASUREMENT OF THIS PARTICULAR
134
1 WOUND?
2 A. IT WAS 5-1/2 INCHES IN LENGTH, THAT IS FROM
3 LEFT TO RIGHT.
4 Q. AND WHAT IS THE DEPTH OF THAT WOUND?
5 A. WELL, IT IS LONGER THAN IT'S DEEP.
6 DEPENDING ON HOW THE NECK IS HELD, IT WENT IN
7 SEVERAL INCHES AND CUT INTO THE BONE OF THE SPINE IN THE
8 BACK OF THE NECK.
9 THIS IS NOT A STAB WOUND, BUT THIS IS A CUTTING
10 OR INCISING, BECAUSE IT'S LONGER THAN IT'S DEEP.
11 IN OTHER WORDS, IT'S A SLASHING TYPE OF INJURY.
12 Q. CAN YOU TELL WHETHER IT WAS SLASHED FROM THE
13 RIGHT SIDE OF THE BODY TO THE LEFT OR VICE VERSA?
14 A. IT APPEARED -- TO ME, IT APPEARED THAT IT WENT
15 FROM THE LEFT TO THE RIGHT.
16 IT APPEARED TO TAPER UP NEAR THE RIGHT EARLOBE
17 AS IT BECOMES MORE SUPERFICIAL.
18 IT'S DEEPER ON THE LEFT SIDE. SO IT APPEARED
19 THAT IT WAS GOING FROM LEFT TO RIGHT, UPWARD TOWARD THE
20 RIGHT EARLOBE.
21 MR. CONN: I WOULD LIKE TO MARK AT THIS TIME ANOTHER
22 PHOTOGRAPH WHICH DEPICTS THE LEFT SIDE OF THE NECK.
23 IF I MAY MARK THIS AS PEOPLE'S 18 FOR
24 IDENTIFICATION.
25 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
26 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 18.)
27 Q. BY MR. CONN: CAN YOU TELL US WHAT IT IS THAT
28 IS DEPICTED IN THIS PHOTOGRAPH.
135
1 A. THIS IS THE FRONT OF THE NECK, SHOWING THE LEFT
2 SIDE.
3 IT SHOWS THE LARGE GAPING INJURY, THE CUTTING
4 INJURY GOING TOWARDS THE LEFT SIDE OF THE NECK, AND THEN ON
5 THE LEFT SIDE BELOW THE EAR THERE ARE ONE -- ONE, TWO,
6 THREE, FOUR ADDITIONAL STAB WOUNDS ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE
7 NECK.
8 IN OTHER WORDS, THESE ARE MUCH NARROWER THAN
9 THE OTHER WOUND AND THEY ARE GOING INTO THE NECK, BUT
10 BECAUSE OF THIS LARGE GAPING CUT THROAT INJURY, THEY
11 INTERSECT THAT WOUND.
12 Q. WHEN YOU SAY, "INTERSECT," DO YOU MEAN THAT THE
13 WOUNDS TOUCH WITHIN THE BODY?
14 A. YES.
15 IN OTHER WORDS, THIS WHOLE AREA HERE, THE
16 ENTIRE NECK IS OPENED UP WITH, AS I MENTIONED, THE CAROTID
17 ARTERY BEING CUT, AND THEN THESE WOUNDS GO IN FROM LEFT TO
18 RIGHT AND ENTER THAT LARGE GAPING WOUND.
19 SO IT'S ACTUALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL EXACTLY HOW
20 DEEP IT WENT BECAUSE THE TISSUE ISN'T INTACT.
21 Q. NOW, IN ADDITION TO THESE WOUNDS, DID YOU ALSO
22 DETERMINE IF THERE WERE ANY WOUNDS TO THE SCALP OF THE
23 VICTIM?
24 A. YES.
25 Q. WHAT WOUNDS DID YOU OBSERVE IN THAT REGARD?
26 A. SHE HAD TWO CUTTING WOUNDS TO THE BACK OF THE
27 SCALP WHICH WERE VISIBLE AFTER THE HAIR WAS SHAVED.
28 AGAIN, THESE WERE NOT DEEP WOUNDS.
136
1 THEY ARE COMPATIBLE WITH EITHER A STABBING
2 WOUND OR CUTTING WOUND, PERHAPS THE POINTED END OF A BLADED
3 INSTRUMENT.
4 MR. CONN: I HAVE A PHOTOGRAPH WHICH DEPICTS TWO
5 WOUNDS TO THE BACK OF THE SCALP.
6 IF I MAY MARK THAT AS PEOPLE'S 19 FOR
7 IDENTIFICATION.
8 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
9 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 19.)
10 MR. CONN: I HAVE ANOTHER PHOTOGRAPH WHICH DEPICTS
11 ONE WOUND TO THE BACK OF THE SCALP.
12 IF I MAY MARK IT AS PEOPLE'S 20 FOR
13 IDENTIFICATION.
14 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
15 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 20.)
16 Q. BY MR. CONN: FIRST OF ALL, SHOWING YOU
17 PEOPLE'S 19 FOR IDENTIFICATION.
18 CAN YOU TELL US WHAT THAT PHOTOGRAPH DEPICTS.
19 A. YES.
20 THAT PHOTOGRAPH SHOWS THE SHAVED BACK OF THE
21 SCALP, SHOWING TWO OF THE CUTTING OR STABBING WOUNDS THAT I
22 DESCRIBED.
23 THEY INVOLVE ONLY THE SKIN AND THE SCALP AND,
24 THEREFORE, THEY ARE SUPERFICIAL NONFATAL WOUNDS.
25 DID YOU ASK ME ABOUT THE THIRD ONE?
26 Q. YES.
27 LET ME DIRECT YOU TO THE NEXT ONE, WHICH IS
28 PEOPLE'S 20 FOR IDENTIFICATION.
137
1 CAN YOU DESCRIBE THAT ONE.
2 A. AND THAT WAS A THIRD WOUND OF THE SCALP
3 MEASURING 1-1/2 INCHES IN LENGTH. IT'S THIS ONE RIGHT
4 HERE, A 1-1/2-INCH LONG CUTTING WOUND OF THE SCALP ON THE
5 RIGHT SIDE.
6 SO THERE ARE ACTUALLY THREE CUTTING WOUNDS OF
7 THE BACK OF THE SCALP.
8 Q. AND DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE ONE WHICH
9 IS DEPICTED IN PEOPLE'S 20 FOR IDENTIFICATION.
10 CAN YOU TELL US, WAS THERE A DEPTH TO THAT
11 WOUND THAT WAS MEASURED?
12 A. THREE-EIGHTHS TO ONE-HALF INCH.
13 Q. DEEP?
14 A. YES.
15 Q. THE DEPTH OF THE OTHER TWO WOUNDS ON PEOPLE'S
16 19 FOR IDENTIFICATION?
17 A. AGAIN, THREE-EIGHTHS TO ONE-HALF INCH.
18 Q. NOW, YOU DESCRIBED THE TYPE OF WEAPON THAT MAY
19 HAVE BEEN USED TO COMMIT THE INJURIES OR INFLICT THE
20 INJURIES WITH REGARD TO THE FIRST VICTIM.
21 AS FAR AS THIS VICTIM IS CONCERNED, DID YOU
22 FORM AN OPINION AS TO THE NATURE OF THE WEAPON THAT MIGHT
23 HAVE BEEN USED TO INFLICT THESE INJURIES?
24 A. WELL, IT'S OBVIOUSLY A CUTTING WOUND, A SHARP
25 INSTRUMENT.
26 HOWEVER, SOME OF THE STAB WOUNDS APPEAR TO HAVE
27 A DULL OR BACK END COMPATIBLE WITH A SINGLE-EDGED BLADE.
28 I'M TALKING PARTICULARLY ABOUT SOME OF THE STAB
138
1 WOUNDS ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE NECK APPEAR TO BE DULL OR
2 SQUARED OFF AND COMPATABLE WITH A SINGLE-EDGED BLADE.
3 SO, AGAIN, IT APPEARS A KNIFE WITH A SINGLE
4 EDGE COULD HAVE CAUSED THESE INJURIES.
5 Q. NOW, IN YOUR OPINION, BASED UPON YOUR
6 EXAMINATION OF ALL OF THE WOUNDS INFLICTED TO BOTH OF THE
7 VICTIMS IN THIS CASE, COULD ALL OF THE WOUNDS BE INFLICTED
8 BY THE SAME WEAPON?
9 A. YES.
10 Q. AND THAT WEAPON WOULD HAVE BEEN -- AT LEAST ALL
11 OF THE WOUNDS ARE CONSISTENT WITH A SINGLE-EDGED KNIFE?
12 A. YES.
13 MR. CONN: I HAVE A PHOTOGRAPH OR DISPLAY HERE
14 CONSISTING OF FOUR PHOTOGRAPHS.
15 I WOULD LIKE FOR MARK THIS DISPLAY AS PEOPLE'S
16 21 FOR IDENTIFICATION.
17 THE FOREPERSON: SO ORDERED.
18 (MARKED FOR I.D.: = EXHIBIT 21.)
19 Q. BY MR. CONN: SHOWING YOU THIS DISPLAY, WHICH
20 DEPICTS A KNIFE IN EACH OF FOUR PHOTOGRAPHS AND ALSO
21 DEPICTS THE KNIFE MEASURED AGAINST A RULER IN THREE OF THE
22 PHOTOGRAPHS.
23 DO YOU RECOGNIZE THE KNIFE THAT IS DEPICTED IN
24 THIS PHOTOGRAPH?
25 A. YES.
26 Q. AND WAS THIS KNIFE SHOWN PREVIOUSLY TO YOU BY
27 THE INVESTIGATING OFFICERS IN THIS CASE?
28 A. YES.
139
1 Q. DO YOU RECALL WHEN IT WAS THAT THEY SHOWED YOU
2 THIS KNIFE?
3 A. I BELIEVE IT WAS WEDNESDAY, THIS LAST
4 WEDNESDAY.
5 Q. AND DO YOU RECALL WHAT THE SIZE OF THIS BLADE
6 IS?
7 A. YES.
8 THE BLADE FROM THE TIP TO WHERE IT WAS HELD IS
9 APPROXIMATELY 6 INCHES.
10 Q. AND WERE YOU ASKED TO RENDER THEM AN OPINION AS
11 TO WHETHER THIS PARTICULAR WEAPON COULD HAVE CAUSED ALL OF
12 THE INJURIES IN THIS CASE?
13 A. YES.
14 IT'S OBVIOUSLY A SINGLE-EDGED BLADE, SO THAT
15 COULD CAUSE THE CUTTING WOUNDS; AND THE LENGTH OF THE BLADE
16 WAS 6 INCHES, SO THAT IS LONG ENOUGH TO HAVE CAUSED THE
17 DEEPEST STAB WOUND, WHICH I MEASURED TO BE ABOUT 5-1/2
18 INCHES; AND IT IS A SINGLE-EDGED BLADE.
19 Q. SO, IN YOUR OPINION, THE KNIFE THAT IS DEPICTED
20 IN THESE PHOTOGRAPHS IS A WEAPON WHICH COULD HAVE CAUSED
21 ALL OF THE INJURIES, OR A KNIFE IDENTICAL TO THIS KNIFE
22 DEPICTED IN THE PHOTOGRAPHS COULD HAVE CAUSED ALL OF THE
23 INJURIES IN THIS CASE?
24 A. THAT'S RIGHT; IT COULD HAVE CAUSED THOSE
25 INJURIES, YES.
26 Q. NOW, ONCE AGAIN, WITH REGARD TO EACH OF THE
27 PHOTOGRAPHS THAT WE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSING CONCERNING THE
28 PERSON WHO IS IDENTIFIED TO YOU AS NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON,
140
1 WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN PHOTOGRAPHS NO. 17 THROUGH 20, DO
2 EACH OF THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS DEPICT THE BODY AT THE TIME OF
3 THE AUTOPSY?
4 A. YES.
5 Q. ARE EACH OF THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS MARKED UNDER THE
6 CASE NO. 94-5136, AN AUTOPSY THAT YOU PERFORMED ON THE
7 14TH OF JUNE, 1994?
8 A. YES.
9 Q. I BELIEVE YOU TESTIFIED ALREADY THAT THE CAUSE
10 OF DEATH IN THIS CASE WAS AS A RESULT OF THE MULTIPLE SHARP
11 FORCES THAT WERE INFLICTED UPON THE BODY.
12 A. YES.
13 Q. DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION SPECIFICALLY TO THE
14 FORCED STAB WOUNDS THAT APPEAR ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE
15 NECK.
16 DO YOU HAVE ANY OPINION WHETHER THEY WERE
17 INFLICTED ANTEMORTEM OR POSTMORTEM?
18 A. WELL, IF THERE IS BRUISING IN THE SKIN AND
19 ALONGSIDE THESE OR -- THOSE INJURIES, THEY ARE ANTEMORTEM
20 INJURIES. THEY DO NOT APPEAR POSTMORTEM.
21 THERE IS BRUISING AND BLEEDING IN EACH OF
22 THOSE. SO THAT IS WHAT WE DESCRIBE AS AN ANTEMORTEM
23 INJURY. IT OCCURRED BEFORE DEATH.
24 MR. CONN: THANK YOU.
25 I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS AT THIS TIME.
26 THE FOREPERSON: IF ANY MEMBERS OF THE GRAND JURY
27 HAVE ANY QUESTIONS, PLEASE WRITE THEM ON A PIECE OF PAPER.
28 THEY WILL BE PICKED UP BY THE
141
1 SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
2
3 (SHORT PAUSE.)
4
5 Q. BY MR. CONN: IN REGARD TO THE ABRASIONS
6 WHICH YOU NOTED TO THE KNUCKLES OF THE MALE VICTIM, IS
7 THERE ANY WAY BY WHICH YOU COULD DETERMINE THE NATURE OF
8 THE SURFACE WHICH CAUSED THOSE ABRASIONS?
9 A. NO.
10 THEY ARE -- THEY ARE ABRASIONS WHICH INDICATE
11 BLUNT TRAUMA OR A ROUGH SURFACE.
12 THERE IS NOTHING SPECIFIC ABOUT THEIR
13 APPEARANCE THAT COULD INDICATE THE EXACT NATURE OF THE
14 SURFACE.
15 Q. I TAKE IT THAT THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN
16 DETERMINE WHETHER THAT INJURY WAS INFLICTED BECAUSE THE
17 VICTIM HIMSELF STRUCK AN OBJECT OR AN OBJECT WAS STRUCK
18 AGAINST HIS HAND?
19 A. THAT'S CORRECT.
20 Q. THE INJURIES TO THE SCALP OF THE FEMALE VICTIM,
21 WERE YOU ABLE TO DETERMINE FROM THE HEMORRHAGING AROUND
22 THOSE INJURIES WHETHER THEY WERE INFLICTED POSTMORTEM OR
23 ANTEMORTEM?
24 A. THEY WERE DEFINITELY ANTEMORTEM.
25 EACH WAS ASSOCIATED WITH BRUISING IN THE SCALP.
26 Q. ONCE AGAIN, THAT WOULD BE BEFORE DEATH?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. I SHOWED YOU THE KNIFE WHICH YOU SAID WAS
142
1 CONSISTENT WITH ALL OF THE WOUNDS INFLICTED ON THE MALE
2 VICTIM.
3 WHAT WAS, ONCE AGAIN, THE DEPTH OF THE NECK
4 WOUNDS TO THAT MALE VICTIM?
5 A. ON THE LEFT SIDE, WITHOUT TAKING THE EAR INTO
6 ACCOUNT, 4 INCHES; ON THE RIGHT, SIDE 2 INCHES.
7 IF THE TOP OF THE EAR WAS ALSO TAKEN INTO
8 ACCOUNT, IT WOULD COME OUT TO 6 INCHES.
9 Q. WAS THE WIDTH OF THE KNIFE BLADE THAT IS
10 DEPICTED IN EXHIBIT NO. 21 CONSISTENT WITH THE WIDTH OF THE
11 STABBING WOUNDS?
12 A. YES.
13 I MEASURED IT TO APPROXIMATELY THREE-QUARTERS
14 OF AN INCH.
15 I DID NOT FIND ANY WOUND LARGER THAN
16 THREE-QUARTERS OF AN INCH IN WIDTH THAT WERE PURELY STAB
17 WOUNDS, THROUGH SOME OF THE WOUNDS I SHOWED WERE CLEARLY UP
18 TO 3 INCHES. BUT THAT COULD BE ACCOUNTED FOR BY SLICING.
19 A NARROW BLADE CAN CAUSE A LARGE STAB WOUND IF
20 THERE IS SLICING INVOLVED WITH IT. SO A GREATER WIDTH ON
21 THE WOUNDS DOES NOT MEAN THAT A NARROW BLADE DID NOT CAUSE
22 IT.
23 AS LONG AS THERE IS A SLICING MOVEMENT A
24 THREE-QUARTER INCH BLADE CAN CAUSE A WIDE STAB WOUND.
25 Q. ON THE KNIFE, IT DEPICTS OR IT SEEMS TO
26 HAVE TWO BRASS PROTRUSIONS ON EITHER SIDE OF THE BLADE.
27 DID YOU SEE OR DID YOU NOTE ANY INJURIES THAT
28 ARE CONSISTENT OR INCONSISTENT WITH THAT TYPE OF AN OBJECT?
143
1 A. THERE WERE NO IMPRESSIONS THAT I SAW ON ANY OF
2 THE STAB WOUNDS THAT SHOWED THOSE TWO PROTRUSIONS ON --
3 THAT SHOW THOSE TWO PROTRUSIONS, WHICH COULD MEAN IF THAT
4 IS THE WEAPON, THAT IT DIDN'T GO IN ALL THE WAY.
5 AS I SAID, THE BLOOD WAS 6 INCHES LONG AND IT'S
6 POSSIBLE THAT THE WEAPON DID NOT PENETRATE ALL THE WAY IN
7 TO LEAVE THOSE MARKS.
8 Q. SO THE FACT THAT THE KNIFE HAS THOSE TWO BRASS
9 PROTRUSIONS DOESN'T CHANGE YOUR OPINION ANY AS TO THE FACT
10 THAT THIS KNIFE OR A KNIFE IDENTICAL TO IT MIGHT HAVE
11 CAUSED THE INJURIES IN THIS CASE?
12 A. NO. IT'S NEGATIVE EVIDENCE.
13 AND, IN ADDITION, THE DEEPER WOUNDS ON
14 MR. GOLDMAN OCCURRED ON THE ABDOMEN WHERE THERE WAS A
15 SHIRT.
16 SO ONE OF THE DEEPER WOUNDS I SAW, WHICH WAS
17 ON THE LEFT SIDE OF HIS ABDOMEN, WOULD BE WHERE THE SHIRT
18 WAS.
19 SO IT'S POSSIBLE THAT THE CLOTHING PREVENTED AN
20 ABRASION ON THE SKIN.
21 Q. IS IT POSSIBLE TO DETERMINE FROM LOOKING AT THE
22 WOUNDS WHETHER THE PERSON DOING THE STABBING WAS STANDING
23 IN FRONT OR BEHIND THE VICTIMS?
24 A. NOT -- THAT'S REALLY -- THAT REALLY WOULD BE A
25 LOT OF SPECULATION.
26 I CAN'T REALLY TELL THE POSITION OF THE
27 ASSAILANT.
28 Q. DIRECTING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE INJURIES
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1 INFLICTED TO THE MALE, WERE YOU ABLE TO DETERMINE WHETHER
2 THERE WAS ANY TWISTING MOTION, AND I'M REFERRING TO THE
3 LARGE INJURIES WHICH APPEAR TO THE NECK, OR WAS IT SIMPLY A
4 STABBING MOTION AND A CUTTING MOTION?
5 A. THE LATTER. I DIDN'T SEE ANY EVIDENCE OF
6 TWISTING.
7 STABBING AND CUTTING OR SLICING -- I DIDN'T SEE
8 ANY TWISTING MOTION.
9 Q. IN REGARD TO THE FEMALE VICTIM, WOULD YOU SAY
10 THE SAME THING; THAT THERE WAS NO TWISTING, BUT RATHER
11 STABBING AND CUTTING TYPE OF MOTIONS?
12 A. YES.
13 Q. WITH REGARD TO THE MALE VICTIM, WERE THE NECK
14 INJURIES THE SOLE CAUSE OF DEATH OR WAS THE INJURY TO THE
15 TORSO ALSO A CAUSE OF DEATH?
16 A. THE TORSO INJURIES WERE -- TWO OF THE STAB
17 WOUNDS TO THE CHEST PERFORATED THE LUNG, AND THE ONE IN THE
18 ABDOMEN PERFORATED THE AORTA.
19 SO THEY ALSO WERE FATAL INJURIES. THAT'S WHY I
20 GAVE THE CAUSES OF DEATH AS MULTIPLE.
21 THE STAB WOUNDS OF THE LEFT SIDE OF THE NECK ON
22 THE MALE DECEDENT WAS INDEPENDENTLY FATAL. THE JUGULAR
23 VEIN WAS SEVERED.
24 BUT, IN COMBINATION WITH THE OTHER INJURIES,
25 THEY ALSO WOULD BE CONSIDERED LETHAL CONTRIBUTIONS TO THE
26 BLEEDING INSIDE OF THE BODY.
27 Q. AS PART OF YOUR EXAMINATION, DO YOU MEASURE THE
28 HEIGHT OF THE BODIES AND WEIGHT OF THE BODIES AS WELL?
145
1 A. YES.
2 Q. COULD YOU TELL US WHAT THOSE MEASUREMENTS ARE
3 FOR EACH OF THE BODIES.
4 A. OKAY.
5 ON NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, SHE MEASURED 65 INCHES
6 OR 5 FEET 5 INCHES TALL AND 129 POUNDS.
7 ON RONALD GOLDMAN, HE WAS 5 FEET 9 INCHES TALL
8 AND 171 POUNDS.
9 Q. WOULD ANY OF THE WOUNDS INFLICTED TO THE
10 VICTIMS RESULT IN A BLOOD SPRAYING OR SPURTING IN A MANNER
11 THAT CONCLUSIONS CAN BE DRAWN ABOUT THE NATURE OF THE
12 STABBING, IF YOU KNOW?
13 A. WELL, NOT THE NATURE OF THE STABBING.
14 BUT, ON NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON, BOTH CAROTID
15 ARTERIES WERE COMPLETELY TRANSECTED, SO THAT WOULD LEAD TO
16 SPURTING OF BLOOD.
17 DEFINITELY WITH THE TWO CAROTID ARTERIES WHICH
18 ARE PUMPING BLOOD. ALSO, THE JUGULAR VEINS ARE CUT, WHICH
19 WOULD ALSO LEAD TO A GREAT LOSS OF BLOOD.
20 ON MR. GOLDMAN, THE CAROTID ARTERIES WERE NOT
21 CUT, BUT THE LEFT JUGULAR VEIN WAS COMPLETELY CUT, WHICH
22 WOULD LEAD MAYBE NOT TO A SQUIRTING, BUT A GREAT BLOOD LOSS
23 TO THE LEFT SIDE OF THE NECK.
24 Q. THE EXTENT OF THE ASSAILANT WOULD HAVE GOT
25 BLOOD ON HIMSELF WOULD BE DETERMINED BY WHERE HE WAS
26 STANDING AT THE TIME?
27 A. YES.
28 Q. AND YOU WOULD ONLY BE SPECULATING ABOUT THAT?
146
1 A. YES; THAT'S CORRECT.
2 MR. CONN: THAT'S ALL THE QUESTIONS.
3 THE FOREPERSON: ARE THERE ANYMORE QUESTIONS TO BE
4 SUBMITTED BY THE GRAND JURORS?
5
6 (SHORT PAUSE.)
7
8 THE FOREPERSON: DR. GOLDMAN, YOU WILL RECALL THAT
9 YOU HAVE BEEN PREVIOUSLY ADMONISHED ABOUT THE SECRECY OF
10 PROCEEDINGS AND MUST HEED THAT ADMONISHMENT.
11 THE WITNESS: YES.
12 THE FOREPERSON: THANK YOU.
13 YOU ARE EXCUSED.
14
15 (THE WITNESS EXITS THE GRAND
16 JURY HEARING ROOM.)
17
18 MS. CLARK: THE NEXT WITNESS WILL TAKE SOME TIME.
19 I UNDERSTAND WE ARE GOING TO BE ADJOURNING AT
20 3:00 O'CLOCK.
21 PERHAPS IT WOULD BE BEST TO NOT BEGIN THAT
22 TESTIMONY AT THIS TIME AND ADJOURN. THESE WITNESSES I CAN
23 MANAGE TO BRING BACK.
24 THANK YOU.
25 THE FOREPERSON: THE GRAND JURORS HAVE BEEN
26 ADMONISHED REGARDING DISCUSSION OF THE CASE.
27 PLEASE REMEMBER AND FOLLOW THE ADMONISHMENT.
28 WE ARE IN RECESS UNTIL 9:00 O'CLOCK A.M.
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